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Old 09-16-2004, 06:28 AM   #31
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

Quote:
Originally posted by Lara Mullen


Why the "you people think"? I haven't said what my religous beliefs are. Don't assume I believe we have to listen to everything God has told us in the bible, 10 commandments etc because I don't. The opinions I have on certain moral and ethical topics aren't based on the word of God. They are based on what I believe is right. I am not a very religous person. I haven't been to church in 8 years. I feel that I am still a good person. regardless of whether or not I belive if God exists the teachings of the bible or the 10 commandments should be put into practice by folk more. There is nothing wrong with trying to be a better person.
Well was I wrong to assume that Christians would follow the ten commandments\certain fundamental parts of the Bible? That's what I meant by 'you people,' ie. Practicing Christians that belive in 10 commandments etc. If you are not one of these people, I wasn't referring to you.
I admire you for thinking for yourself and I admire how you try to be a better person in your own right, not a 'God's' right. Thankyou.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:36 AM   #32
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If everybody obeyed reason then petty self interest would rule, anything else other than free will and compassion leads to despotism which is where all this argument leads. If people are unable to believe what they want to believe then they are being robbed of their freedom.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:44 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If everybody obeyed reason then petty self interest would rule, anything else other than free will and compassion leads to despotism which is where all this argument leads. If people are unable to believe what they want to believe then they are being robbed of their freedom.
Reason is not to be obeyed, it is to be explored. But if we all have a common humanity, self-interest shouldn't rule. If it did, then all our reasoning will lead to death and destruction. And in relation to people being able to believe what they want to believe, they are indeed being robbed of their freedom. That's where good ol reason comes into play.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:47 AM   #34
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No freedom is the ability to choose, to believe what you want even if it is wrong, stopping people from thinking thoughts unless they conforms to some sort of universal reason is authoritarian, it removes free will from the equation and that is not a good thing. People must always have the right to choose, for better or worse.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:53 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
No freedom is the ability to choose, to believe what you want even if it is wrong, stopping people from thinking thoughts unless they conforms to some sort of universal reason is authoritarian, it removes free will from the equation and that is not a good thing. People must always have the right to choose, for better or worse.
Yep I agree. This topic kinda went on a tangent, but it's still interesting and relevant to the fact that I'm trying to understand what 'Christians' and 'Non-Christians' think. I should go to bed now, or better yet do some homework I promised myself I would do. I gotta stop breaking my own promises.
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Old 09-16-2004, 07:27 AM   #36
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I believe in God and none of the argument presented here, has proved to me. That God doesn't exist. I also attend a Catholic church, by choice, not force. And I hear the messages of God's love and grace for all his children, not just for "the chosen few." I also greatly respect other beliefs. But, I have a question. If God doesn't exsit, then why have humans always had a belief in the afterlife? That the soul is eternal.
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Old 09-16-2004, 07:47 AM   #37
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I read the first page of this thread and skimmed the rest, so please excuse me if I miss something.

AussieFan...you come across as condescending, thats probably my biggest contention (I also think you are cynical).

Christianity is a rich and diverse religion with a rich and diverse history. You seem to be addressing some one belief system, a straw man, to suit your arguments. If you investigate you'll find everything from fundamentalism in the Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox church to people who believe that Jesus was "just a good man."

The best thing is that no matter what you say, what Jesus said, or supposedly said, in terms of social justice, is just as radical today as it was 2000 years ago. Nothing changes that.
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:00 AM   #38
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I'm gonna get the shit kicked out of me here, but I sense a pattern in the impetus behind this thread.

Lord save us from 17 year olds who think they know it all!

And I say that as a 27 year old (Aussie) who was utterly insufferable and rigid at the age of 17. It's true, we really do know (almost)nothing! Yes, there are absolutes of right and wrong, good and evil, but the trick is navigating the complex shoals in between.
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:00 AM   #39
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I have done a lot of thinking on this subject over the years... And I think I have a pretty unique perspective on it. One aspect I first noticed about religion in general is that if everyone practices their own beliefs in a true and honest way...then they become true and honest human beings. I have not encountered any religion that actually teaches people to be evil. Moreover, those who claim to be atheists have formulated their own system of beliefs which are just as noble as any religion. If someone practices the love, compassion, honesty, etc. of Christianity but does not believe in Jesus/God, then as humans we cannot tell them apart from any devout Christian. An atheist helping the poor/needy would look the same as a devout Christain helping the poor/needy. Our actions are the limits/guides to human interaction...while our faith/beliefs are completely personal and cannot be tangibly grasped by others. Is there any difference between a very religious person telling the truth or an atheist telling the truth? If both people value the concept of truth, then in terms of action/behavior (the only thing we can measure as humans) we cannot tell the difference between the two people. The existence of God really does not matter. If one person is an atheist and also a noble human being, then he/she is doing the best he/she can to better humanity. If another person derives all beliefs from a religion, but also is a noble human being, then he/she is ALSO bettering humanity. The existence of God is inconsequential when dealing with human behavior. No matter what religion (or no religion) you practice, if you don't kill your fellow human beings, or lie to them, etc...then what does it matter where you derive your beliefs from? How you think things came about, or where morality comes from, or where you will go after you die, or what is the ultimate goal of your actions makes no difference if we are compassionate to one another. If I do not lie because I'm afraid of getting my allowance taken away, and you do not lie because you believe that you will be in hell for the rest of eternity....what's the difference? We both didn't lie. Religion/atheism are guides to moral/ethical behavior...and different "guides" may contain different reasons for everything...but as humans that reasoning is inconsequential. If you are a devout believer in God, I would hope that you will call the police if you see me being attacked by an angry mob. AussieU2fanman does not believe in God, but the fact that he would also help me in that situation (I hope!) proves that religion/beliefs stand second to how we actually behave towards one another.
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:07 AM   #40
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I think I see what Anirban is getting at and those are good points. I think they are valid points. Many religious people would disagree I suspect, because of the apparent disconnect between faith-and-works and faith-alone... Ie. the belief that your actions and intentions are irrelevant unless you accept Christ as your saviour explicitly (which I do not endorse btw).
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:10 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville
I'm gonna get the shit kicked out of me here, but I sense a pattern in the impetus behind this thread.

Lord save us from 17 year olds who think they know it all!

And I say that as a 27 year old (Aussie) who was utterly insufferable and rigid at the age of 17. It's true, we really do know (almost)nothing! Yes, there are absolutes of right and wrong, good and evil, but the trick is navigating the complex shoals in between.
Great post! I was the same at 17, but unlike AussieFan, I was 100% sure that Jesus was Lord and Saviour and everyone who didn't believe like I did was doomed to eternal hellfire!

Now I am 27 as well, and I agree 100% with you Kieran. I also reckon that when I am 37 I'll probablt think about how hard headed I was at 27!

Of course none of this invalidates Aussie's points. They are just as valid as mine or your despite age (I am NOT being condescending Aussie, I genuinely mean that).

BTW, sometimes I do feel I have become to laid back and comfortable, which is why I read FYM regularily.
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:11 AM   #42
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Please guys, thanks for commenting, but please read my and everybody elses posts before making a comment. I think I really may have given the wrong impresison in my first post. Everything I said was an informed opinion as I said before. I'm not claiming everything I say is 100% true and nor do I look down on any of you. I am just trying to understand the correlation between myself and yourselves in relation to our seperate beliefs and views on religion. My posts may be long but please read before writing me off as a complete wanker. Cheers.
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Old 09-16-2004, 08:18 AM   #43
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Well, I have read the rest of your posts, but I won't edit my last two.
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Old 09-16-2004, 10:24 AM   #44
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I'll let this thread stay open, but please be nice.

Aussiefan, please keep in mind that calling people "stupid" and such is not allowed in FYM. Since the thread does seem to be producing genuine dialogue, I'll let it go, but another posting like that in the future will be closed immediately.

Thanks.
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Old 09-16-2004, 11:01 AM   #45
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Wow. This is probably as feisty as I've seen FYM. As for my own beliefs, I am a christian, but I interpret the Bible very loosely. There are many flaws with it such as a) Being written by fallible men b) Not being written right as events were happening c) Meanings are lost in translation. Those are only a few. The thing I believe is most important is the Golden Rule, which spans across all religions, big and small.

Question for those who don't believe in God...just curious...
What are your thoughts on life after death? Does it end there, or do you believe it goes on? Frankly, I don't know, and I'll find out when I die.
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