Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

[AussieU2fanman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

Why the "you people think"? I haven't said what my religous beliefs are. Don't assume I believe we have to listen to everything God has told us in the bible, 10 commandments etc because I don't. The opinions I have on certain moral and ethical topics aren't based on the word of God. They are based on what I believe is right. I am not a very religous person. I haven't been to church in 8 years. I feel that I am still a good person. regardless of whether or not I belive if God exists the teachings of the bible or the 10 commandments should be put into practice by folk more. There is nothing wrong with trying to be a better person.

Well was I wrong to assume that Christians would follow the ten commandments\certain fundamental parts of the Bible? That's what I meant by 'you people,' ie. Practicing Christians that belive in 10 commandments etc. If you are not one of these people, I wasn't referring to you.
I admire you for thinking for yourself and I admire how you try to be a better person in your own right, not a 'God's' right. Thankyou.

 

[A_Wanderer]

If everybody obeyed reason then petty self interest would rule, anything else other than free will and compassion leads to despotism which is where all this argument leads. If people are unable to believe what they want to believe then they are being robbed of their freedom.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

If everybody obeyed reason then petty self interest would rule, anything else other than free will and compassion leads to despotism which is where all this argument leads. If people are unable to believe what they want to believe then they are being robbed of their freedom.

Reason is not to be obeyed, it is to be explored. But if we all have a common humanity, self-interest shouldn't rule. If it did, then all our reasoning will lead to death and destruction. And in relation to people being able to believe what they want to believe, they are indeed being robbed of their freedom. That's where good ol reason comes into play.

 

[A_Wanderer]

No freedom is the ability to choose, to believe what you want even if it is wrong, stopping people from thinking thoughts unless they conforms to some sort of universal reason is authoritarian, it removes free will from the equation and that is not a good thing. People must always have the right to choose, for better or worse.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

No freedom is the ability to choose, to believe what you want even if it is wrong, stopping people from thinking thoughts unless they conforms to some sort of universal reason is authoritarian, it removes free will from the equation and that is not a good thing. People must always have the right to choose, for better or worse.

Yep I agree. This topic kinda went on a tangent, but it's still interesting and relevant to the fact that I'm trying to understand what 'Christians' and 'Non-Christians' think. I should go to bed now, or better yet do some homework I promised myself I would do. I gotta stop breaking my own promises.

 

[Maeve]

I believe in God and none of the argument presented here, has proved to me. That God doesn't exist. I also attend a Catholic church, by choice, not force. And I hear the messages of God's love and grace for all his children, not just for "the chosen few." I also greatly respect other beliefs. But, I have a question. If God doesn't exsit, then why have humans always had a belief in the afterlife? That the soul is eternal.

 

[iacrobat]

I read the first page of this thread and skimmed the rest, so please excuse me if I miss something.

AussieFan...you come across as condescending, thats probably my biggest contention (I also think you are cynical).

Christianity is a rich and diverse religion with a rich and diverse history. You seem to be addressing some one belief system, a straw man, to suit your arguments. If you investigate you'll find everything from fundamentalism in the Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox church to people who believe that Jesus was "just a good man."

The best thing is that no matter what you say, what Jesus said, or supposedly said, in terms of social justice, is just as radical today as it was 2000 years ago. Nothing changes that.

 

[Kieran McConville]

I'm gonna get the shit kicked out of me here, but I sense a pattern in the impetus behind this thread.

Lord save us from 17 year olds who think they know it all!

And I say that as a 27 year old (Aussie) who was utterly insufferable and rigid at the age of 17. It's true, we really do know (almost)nothing! Yes, there are absolutes of right and wrong, good and evil, but the trick is navigating the complex shoals in between.

 

[Anirban]

I have done a lot of thinking on this subject over the years... And I think I have a pretty unique perspective on it. One aspect I first noticed about religion in general is that if everyone practices their own beliefs in a true and honest way...then they become true and honest human beings. I have not encountered any religion that actually teaches people to be evil. Moreover, those who claim to be atheists have formulated their own system of beliefs which are just as noble as any religion. If someone practices the love, compassion, honesty, etc. of Christianity but does not believe in Jesus/God, then as humans we cannot tell them apart from any devout Christian. An atheist helping the poor/needy would look the same as a devout Christain helping the poor/needy. Our actions are the limits/guides to human interaction...while our faith/beliefs are completely personal and cannot be tangibly grasped by others. Is there any difference between a very religious person telling the truth or an atheist telling the truth? If both people value the concept of truth, then in terms of action/behavior (the only thing we can measure as humans) we cannot tell the difference between the two people. The existence of God really does not matter. If one person is an atheist and also a noble human being, then he/she is doing the best he/she can to better humanity. If another person derives all beliefs from a religion, but also is a noble human being, then he/she is ALSO bettering humanity. The existence of God is inconsequential when dealing with human behavior. No matter what religion (or no religion) you practice, if you don't kill your fellow human beings, or lie to them, etc...then what does it matter where you derive your beliefs from? How you think things came about, or where morality comes from, or where you will go after you die, or what is the ultimate goal of your actions makes no difference if we are compassionate to one another. If I do not lie because I'm afraid of getting my allowance taken away, and you do not lie because you believe that you will be in hell for the rest of eternity....what's the difference? We both didn't lie. Religion/atheism are guides to moral/ethical behavior...and different "guides" may contain different reasons for everything...but as humans that reasoning is inconsequential. If you are a devout believer in God, I would hope that you will call the police if you see me being attacked by an angry mob. AussieU2fanman does not believe in God, but the fact that he would also help me in that situation (I hope!) proves that religion/beliefs stand second to how we actually behave towards one another.

 

[Kieran McConville]

I think I see what Anirban is getting at and those are good points. I think they are valid points. Many religious people would disagree I suspect, because of the apparent disconnect between faith-and-works and faith-alone... Ie. the belief that your actions and intentions are irrelevant unless you accept Christ as your saviour explicitly (which I do not endorse btw).

 

[iacrobat]

I'm gonna get the shit kicked out of me here, but I sense a pattern in the impetus behind this thread.

Lord save us from 17 year olds who think they know it all!

And I say that as a 27 year old (Aussie) who was utterly insufferable and rigid at the age of 17. It's true, we really do know (almost)nothing! Yes, there are absolutes of right and wrong, good and evil, but the trick is navigating the complex shoals in between.

Great post! I was the same at 17, but unlike AussieFan, I was 100% sure that Jesus was Lord and Saviour and everyone who didn't believe like I did was doomed to eternal hellfire!

Now I am 27 as well, and I agree 100% with you Kieran. I also reckon that when I am 37 I'll probablt think about how hard headed I was at 27!

Of course none of this invalidates Aussie's points. They are just as valid as mine or your despite age (I am NOT being condescending Aussie, I genuinely mean that).

BTW, sometimes I do feel I have become to laid back and comfortable, which is why I read FYM regularily.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Please guys, thanks for commenting, but please read my and everybody elses posts before making a comment. I think I really may have given the wrong impresison in my first post. Everything I said was an informed opinion as I said before. I'm not claiming everything I say is 100% true and nor do I look down on any of you. I am just trying to understand the correlation between myself and yourselves in relation to our seperate beliefs and views on religion. My posts may be long but please read before writing me off as a complete wanker. Cheers.

 

[iacrobat]

Well, I have read the rest of your posts, but I won't edit my last two.

 

[pax]

I'll let this thread stay open, but please be nice.

Aussiefan, please keep in mind that calling people "stupid" and such is not allowed in FYM. Since the thread does seem to be producing genuine dialogue, I'll let it go, but another posting like that in the future will be closed immediately.

Thanks.

 

[U2democrat]

Wow. This is probably as feisty as I've seen FYM. As for my own beliefs, I am a christian, but I interpret the Bible very loosely. There are many flaws with it such as a) Being written by fallible men b) Not being written right as events were happening c) Meanings are lost in translation. Those are only a few. The thing I believe is most important is the Golden Rule, which spans across all religions, big and small.

Question for those who don't believe in God...just curious...
What are your thoughts on life after death? Does it end there, or do you believe it goes on? Frankly, I don't know, and I'll find out when I die.

 

[U2democrat]

By the way I'm 17 and understand that there are gray areas in life. I also know that I don't know everything, and neither do adults. If adults knew everything, this world would be alot better off.

 

[beli]

I am an Athiest, and I dont want to be in this thread.

Thank you.

 

[U2Kitten]

nevermind

 

[popacrobat]

Well I didn't read past your first sentence. I'm no zealot by any means but you cannot tell me there was no Jesus (or God), as an assertion out of thin air, and expect me to take you seriously.

 

[OzAurora]

I agree with you Aussie. I personally dont believe in any religion, although I do believe that Jesus Christ did exist, however I believe that he was a prophet to some degree and his teachings like you said have been delivered over the years and made into scriptures etc. However with this sad I respect other peoples opinions, even though I do find it hard to believe in religion....but good on you for having the balls to do exactly what this forum is supposed to be about- Free your mind


and by the way, I am 27 and felt this way about reigion since the age of 14- must of been all those years at Catholic schools that turned me off

 

[Liesje]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

Well was I wrong to assume that Christians would follow the ten commandments\certain fundamental parts of the Bible? That's what I meant by 'you people,' ie. Practicing Christians that belive in 10 commandments etc. If you are not one of these people, I wasn't referring to you.

Hey you person, I respect our differences so let me help you out and explain some things. First of all, since you are not a Christian and judging by your posts, I can tell you have a very limited understanding of Christianity and Jesus. Jesus was not a prophet, he fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets. Secondly, the Ten Commandments have very little relavence to Christianity anymore. They were part of those Old Testament traditions and prophecies that Jesus' life and death fulfilled.

If you're not interested in Christianity, you should at least know that the foundations of Christian faith and Christian living are based on the life and faith of Jesus Christ. People often get into nit-picky fights about the most rediculous subjects (like today in class, somewhere in the Bible it says women must have their hair long, men should wear hats, etc). As a general rule I always say, if Jesus didn't adress the issue, it's not important. Therefore, who gives a fuck if I have short hair and don't wrap my head in a scarf or whatever? These things can be fun and interesting to debate about, but as far as evalutating people's beliefs and religion, they're worthless. You need to forget about the Ten Commandments. You're basing your evalutation of Christianity on something that doesn't really matter any more. I respect everyone's opinion, but I think you need to do a bit more research before you start judging and entire religion based on things that make a lot of us go Your arguements thus far are so broad and uninformed that I could offer more sound proof that God DOES exist. If you have a more specific, more informed question/issue to present I'd be more than happy to help. Until then, I'm having a hard time finding anything in your posts worth discussing.

 

[popacrobat]

Okay, this relates to all religions, but more specifically Christianity. You guys are gonna be pissed at me and several of you 'realists' may agree with me.

God doesn't exist. Jesus was either just a good man who :
never claimed to be God, claimed to be god or simply never existed. This man was perfect to become the figurehead of a new Jewish Sect. This religion was desperately needed as a relief from Paganism (which taught that God hated humans) and the Jewish law that was very burdonsome (circumcision). Years and years later of ORAL history (we all know how reliable that is!) the Gospels were written, where Jesus was made into this God-like creature that could heal people, and resurrect from the dead! From then on, bullshit after bullshit was layed upon these doctrines and the Bible and WHAZOO, we have Christianity.
The gospels were written by groups of people (eg John). These people were relying on history that came down after generations via word of mouth. The Gospels are either purely ficticious (to create Jesus into this almighty figure) or they were gathered from information from word of mouth. Now come on people, how could any of you believe a WORD the Bible says! It baffles me! People that live their lives by the Bible are, in my opinion, quit ignorant. I can't put it any other way. And by the way, if God supposedly gave us reason, why must we abide by his rules and not use our own judgement (I admire the ethics of Humanism!).

FACT - Did you guys know that Original Sin was purely made up to get members into the Church? All people are born with sin until they are BAPTIZTED where they are cleansed (bullshit). It must be done at birth to secure members into the Church, like a marketing tool. Very dishonest and sneaky, would Jesus make up a lie like that!?

FACT - Christianity started as blackmail. If you give 100 bits of gold to the Church, your time in purgatory will be reduced to 500 years, if you don't, you will have to wait for 5000 years!

I could go on and on, but I won't. People that believe in any religion fascinate me. Did they really make an independent leap of faith or are they merely holding on in order for salvation (You wouldn't want to burn in hell with all the fire and sharp things! BTW this scare tactic which the Church implemented is downright mean to those gullible\slow people).

Look there are so many things I hate about religion, especially Christianity, but I won't go on. But I am deeply interested religion, how it acts as a tool to control people by those few in power. (Christian doctrine could only be changed by the rich and powerful). As you guys could guess, I am an athiest, been all my life. I couldn't give myself ONE REASON to believe anything that was told to me about Christianity. I searched, I failed. I was a forced Catholic that went to Church every week (and still does, my parents force me to!!), that woke up and realized that, religion is an invention by humans for humans for regulating the lower classes (in the old days), as a revenue generator. However, you people all need religion, not me, you guys. Without it, there will be chaos obviously.

I'll end with a quote from U2's Last Night on Earth : "THE MORE YOU KNOW, THE LESS YOU BELIEVE" (Think about it)

You guys all hate me now, please reply angriliy or reply with other reasons why Christianity should be condemned!

everybody is born with original sin, or just sin in general, because we are not God and therefore are imperfect. but yes, anything you dont believe in is bullshit apparently.

i guess i also must be pretty slow since i believe in a heaven and a hell.

there are records of a jesus of nazareth existing, so, apparently, he did exist, unlike as specified in your first sentence.

ever hear the story of our lady of guadalupe? or the shroud of turin? proof enough (didnt need the proof anyway, i'd believe without) for me.

if there is no God, how are you here? how did we all come to exist? we just were? earth was just here? we happened to evolve? right.

it must be a pretty depressing way to live life believing that there is no god and nothing after you die. i know i'd sure hate to believe that.

ps yes i realize this post is all over the map, but so was the original one.

 

[beli]

Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

or the shroud of turin? proof enough (didnt need the proof anyway, i'd believe without) for me.

it must be a pretty depressing way to live life believing that there is no god and nothing after you die. i know i'd sure hate to believe that.

The shroud of turin was proven to be fake, an old fake, but a fake netherless. Apart from the image being of a Teutonic man, and Jesus being Jewish, the shroud was dated to the Renaissance.

Please dont slander Athiests. You can disagree with posters in this thread but please dont slander an entire group of people. ie you are doing exactly what offends you.

peace

 

[indra]

Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

The shroud of turin was proven to be fake, an old fake, but a fake netherless. Apart from the image being of a Teutonic man, and Jesus being Jewish, the shroud was dated to the Renaissance.

Please dont slander Athiests. You can disagree with posters in this thread but please dont slander an entire group of people. ie you are doing exactly what offends you.

peace

I love this thread! It did start out a bit harshly, but A Wanderer posted some very good replies and certainly moved the thread into a real discussion instead of merely a my belief is better than yours thing, or even a discussion of the details of one denomination opposed to another. I find this type of discussion refreshing and stimulating, as it is more about the beginnings of religion (specifically Christianity) and it's role in society than most of the religion threads here.

I consider myself agnostic more than atheistic because I don't really know if there is indeed a god or not, and I find I don't really care. I don't think religions themselves are bad, but some of the followers (of all religions) sure are jerks! Of course, some people who are followers of no religion are jerks too!

I know this is rather simplistic, but I'm of the whatever floats your boat and doesn't hurt anyone else (and that is not just in your estimation, but their's also), school of thought. Some of the finest people I know are very religious. And some of the finest people I know aren't religious at all. Although I think many of the particulars that many Christians (esp. fundamentalists) believe are malarkey, if they find peace in that, and don't force it onto me or anyone else...well, it's all good. I certainly hope the same consideration is given to me.

And you know, I had more to say on this, but now I'm drawing a blank.... So, maybe later!

 

[Kieran McConville]

I think the Sermon on the Mount is the finest, most radical thing that Christianity has to offer the world. I realise there is a lot more in the Bible than just that, but really it's awfully close to the kernel of it for me.

Shrouds don't interest me, trying to justify religious belief with archaeological junk is a fool's game. It appears that Jesus was indeed a historical figure, but really, even if he wasn't, someone obviously had to make him up.

 

[beli]

Shrouds don't interest me, trying to justify religious belief with archaeological junk is a fool's game.

As mentioned Im not a Christian, what I wanted to say in my last post was - I thought many Christians wouldnt give a flying toss whether the Shroud of Turin was real or not as it doesnt have a bearing on the bible etc.

But I edited my own post as I thought it may have sounded offensive.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What do people think about the Greco-Buddhist philosophies being the melting pot from which Christianity derived some of its concepts, as I said religion is mostly knowledge, the moral guidance and principles are simmilar.

 

[beli]

I'm trying to understand what 'Christians' and 'Non-Christians' think.

Apart from the whole "Religous People" and "Non Religous People" argument . There is another group. Ex Religous People.

I was born and raised an Irreligious Athiest, for want of a term.

But there are many Athiest/Agnostics who, start out life as Christians etc. Some of these Christians, especially Catholics, can turn into the most rabid hateful Athiests. and give "us" all a bad name. Ex Catholics can be every bit as annoying as exsmokers or reformed drinkers. Not all Ex Religious people, just some.

Also, "Non Religious People" do not share a common moral, ethical nor belief system. Theyre not actually a group of people but rather peoples with an absence of allegiance to a belief/moral/ethical system, (and also the spiritual people who are not religious would also fall into this "group" )

 

[Katey]

if I have to have proof God exist's.. to believe in him then to me thats no faith at all.. I've never doubted there is a God .. we have a very nice relationhip.. although he gets me better then I understand him.... everything else is a big piece to the puzzle I'm just trying to figure out. .. One thing I know for sure not one person believe's in God the same way I do .. so I try not to push my ideas to much it's not fair .. I think once you start trying to explain it what your faith is ..it gets lost in translation

 

[AcrobatMan]

I dont like this thread

The presentation is very poor to the point of being offensive... sorry aussieU2fan

But i understand the point you are trying to make but I disagree..
its difficult to find a Christian fanatic.. Having lived in UK and Italy for more than 1.5 years , I couldnt find any

Christians in general are very liberal, open minded & rational.

I am using the word "in general"..