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Old 09-21-2004, 12:40 AM   #226
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville
PS Acrobatman, no offense but I think you protest too much. I've read the whole thread and you're right, the discussion has gotten interesting. But it started off pretty harsh and I can't really blame someone who gets bent out of shape. Threads that start with 'you people' (or similar) tend to be that way.
Yeh I read my first post, and I can understand how people thought I was a dick, which wasn't my intention. But people skim read my first post and reply accordingly, and I keep telling people to read the thread, because it gets very interesting, and I\other people raise many more points.
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Old 09-21-2004, 09:33 AM   #227
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman

You are the one who is ignorant. Read my inital post and all that follow otherwise you are wasting everyones time. I never EVER called Christians in general 'fucking stupid.' I never called your father 'fucking stupid.' I'm getting tired of defending myself to people like you. And if you think I am trying to win converts on a U2 forum, that's just idiotic. I am trying to understand what a Christian is thinking, when he\she devotes his\her life to 'God.' And some of us have learnt quite a bit I believe, especially me.
I think I've got to echo one of Kieran's early posts. It's amazing how many teenagers out there think they've got everything figured out - or at least figured out better than most everyone else. You're 17. You're going to be surprised by how much you change in the next 5 to 10 years. What you are rigid on now might become surprisingly flexible in a few years.

You called Christians who devote their life to the bible stupid . That's offensive either way you look at it, whether you add the F word in there or not. Toning it down to "ignorant" doesn't change the obvious viewpoint behind it. So if DaveC's dad devoted his life to the Bible, then yes, you insulted him. My grandma studies the Bible daily and lives very closely to it. So you insulted her too. You can't throw out a statement like that and then somehow not have it apply to any particular person.

And you may think that you somehow proved how the Bible is void in one or more of your posts, but your "proof" is woefully inadequate to a lot of people around here. Just because the Bible may not be entirely factual, and just because it contains contradictions doesn't mean that it is void of any value and/or worthwhile information that is worth following. The Bible is full of moral guidelines, many of which have assimilated themselves into the very core of societal mores.
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Old 09-21-2004, 10:26 AM   #228
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman


Okay your one of those people who twists and turns things and takes things out of context, and just skimmed my first post and picked up keywords. I initally called people who live and breathe the bible fkn stupid, which was probably harsh and I changed it immediately to 'quite ignorant'. (Based on the factual voidness of the Bible and people still completely devote their lives to it, live and breathe it. I explained how the bible was void in several later posts, which you obviously couldn't be bothered reading.)
You said I called every Christian in the world, and everyone who believes 'fucking stupid'. If you can't even read, please leave.
You are the one who is ignorant. Read my inital post and all that follow otherwise you are wasting everyones time. I never EVER called Christians in general 'fucking stupid.' I never called your father 'fucking stupid.' I'm getting tired of defending myself to people like you. And if you think I am trying to win converts on a U2 forum, that's just idiotic. I am trying to understand what a Christian is thinking, when he\she devotes his\her life to 'God.' And some of us have learnt quite a bit I believe, especially me.
EDIT: I really went off in this post, but Diemen had it pretty well down pat as to what I wanted to say, but in a much lighter tone.

You're younger than I am and I still have a heck of a lot to learn. Lashing out at people who don't believe the same as you is really closed-minded, and (dare I say it?) ignorant.

I think most of the Christians here have done pretty well not to go off on you as I just did.

PS: I read every single post in the thread. Don't jump to conclusions or get all uppity and defensive on me based on an assumption. And don't ever fucking call me an idiot again, or tell me I'm illiterate, or even tell me I'm wasting everyone's time. And you're comment of "your one of those people who twists and turns things and takes things out of context" really fucking chapped my ass.

Ask people who know me here. They know I tell it like it is and don't screw around. I do NOT manipulate people.
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Old 09-21-2004, 11:23 AM   #229
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The strata of the fossil record are not formed by flooding. You find shales and mudstones with very specific layers, this is formed in low energy depositional environments, floods produce massive structureless lumps of material and preservation of fossils is random at best. Science is objective because it begins with no assumptions, it observes and makes logical inferences.

The evolution of metabolism is based on chemistry, it did not just appear as a stable system of plants and animals, it started as archaea which used the splitting of hydrogen sulphide (H2S) as the energy source which went into the biochemical cycles to produce ATP. The process of fixing CO2 produced oxygen as a waste product which eventually transformed the atmosphere. Once this had occured some organisms evolved ways of utilizing oxygen in their metabolism. The processes do not require an all intelligent being to design them. ID introduces theistic principles into science, even if it does not mention God by name, this is not scientific and it is not as valid a theory as that of evolution. Paleontology is a specific discipline which uncovers the history of life on the planet, there is nothing within Intelligent Design that cannot be better described using objective scientific investigation. ID was invented as a wedge-tactic by the creationists to drive God into the science classroom and transform the concept of secular education into religious indocrination. This perpetuates ignorance and reinfoces falsehoods (such as the concept of evolution being Lamarkian, so giraffes will stretch their necks after they are born and then their offspring have long necks - not true).

And in regards to the laws of thermodynamics. Firstly evolution does not counter it as is often claimed because the earth is not a closed system, we recieve large ammounts of energy from the sun and from within the earths crust. There is no reason to say that the emergence of complex life forms violates thermodynamics.
The Universe, is not an open system though. Wouldn't the laws of thermodynamics keep...........

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
13.7 billion years ago a singularity rapidly expanded during an inflationary period. Ripping the universe into existance (refer to the CMBR data, I am going basic here so please go on).

Energy merged into matter and was scattered across the universe according to quantum fluctuations.

The fundamental forces of the universe take hold and quark confinement occurs, this creates the first basic element, hydrogen as well as a little bit of helium.

Big clouds of hydrogen collapse under the effect of gravity eventually the pressure builds up enough for nuclear fusion to occur, this forms new elements up to Iron (Fe).

When they die some of the larger stars explode in a brilliant supernova, these events create quantities of elements beyond Iron such as Uranium.

After a few generations of stars (billions of years) live and die the universe is populated by various bits of matter from which our solar system forms from.

A masssive gas cloud made of the remnants of dead stars collapses, this collapsing matter contains all the material for the sun and planets.

This gas settles into a disk, at the center a protostar. When the protostars pressure/tempreture reaches that of fusion gamma ray/pressure bursts initiate planet formation by melding outlying material into globules. Under the force of gravity these globules attract to eachother eventually forming massive planetoids which collide and form bigger planetoids eventually forming planets. By the end of accretion you have a solar system comprising of 4 terrestrial world, 2 gas giants, 2 ice giants and a number of very strange ice worlds.

On one of the terrestrial worlds liquid water occurs in some specific locations, it also hosts an atmosphere. On this world rudimentary chemical compounds appear and interact, lipids form and integrate creating elaborate molecules. Given a lot of time and a lot of reactions a rudimentary form of life is formed. A self replicating molecule that takes in material from its environment for energy and expels waste. This replicates successfully and changes the world. Natural selection favours certain adaptations creating diverse forms of this molecule, eventually it is able to transform the hadean atmosphere into something more survivable for life as we know it. Oxygen is produced as a waste product, this changed the atmosphere significantly - evidence for the introduction of oxygen is seen in the Banded Iron Formations, where you have iron in both native and oxidized states indiciative of a seasonal change in oxygen levels. This is around 3.9 Billion years ago.

Life exists on the planet, the conditions begin to change and new organisms spread and diversify around the world. They reproduce and slight mutations during reproduction as well as sexual exchange of genetic information ensure that there is change, various population pressures means that over different areas different adaptations take place and are carried through, this takes place over billions of years eventually forming more common life. You go from Archae to prokaryotes to eukaryotic organisms. This takes a lot of time but it can be observed in the fossil record/

Life continues its evolutionary path, the fish evolve in the oceans, then a modified swim bladder provides a storage of oxygen, this leads to the evolution of the lung, which leads to more interesting vertebrate evolution. Mammal like reptiles wind up ruling the earth, they evolve into dinosaurs and in turn the dinosaurs are wiped out and mammals become the dominant group. At the pinnacle of this a type of primate manages to walk upright and has a freak mutation granting it a form of insanity known as conciousness and the ability to communicate (not that simple, just rushing over here).

This first humans survives, spreads out and successive extensions manages to conquer the world. Masters fire, stone tools then domestication and copper. Eventually leading to great civilizations, monetary systems and written language. We are now at a point where we can use computers to communicate at fast speeds and travel short distances in space.


...........this from happening?

Not to mention that there is no "hard evidence" to prove it. Unless you're 13.7 billion years old, and saw all this, you sir or madam, have faith too.

No one was there to see the Universe rip into existence.

Just because I am a Christian, doesn't mean I skipped all the science courses. This is what you atheists don't seem to understand, or won't admit, you do have faith in things, you never seen, heard, witnessed, or read of eye witness reports.

Science is objective, but how we interpret what we see can be subjective.

Animals and humans have similar features, this is observed.

Common ancestor--evolutionist.

Common creator --creationist.

That's the difference.

We can't even begin to measure the Universe, there may be no end to the Universe. We barely understand our own solar system, and ours isn't the only one. I don't think anyone, regardless of how much they know, or think they know, can really stand and say, there is no God. Creationists merely state there is the possibility of one, though you're the first atheist I've encountered to say the possibility is there.

Only someone who knows everything, has a right to say whether something exists or doesn't exists.

When anyone can tell me the exact number of stars that are in the sky, that person can tell me there is no God.
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:05 PM   #230
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I agree with Diemen's and DaveC's comments. This kind of talk is absolutely uncalled for.

I realize you are fairly new here, Aussie, but certainly by now you have come to understand how FYM must operate. Start being more respectful of your fellow posters, or your FYM privileges can, and will be, revoked. It would not be the first time.
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:22 PM   #231
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Once it reaches 500 posts (and it's well on its way) it can be closed!

Pax, I have to come here and say that while we do not always agree I appreciate your moderating and those of the other mods too. I have been frequenting a political forum where personal insults and antagonizing of members is the norm and no one does a thing to stop it. It's one thing to oppose someone's view, it's another to call them names and insult them as a person. That should not be tolerated, on any board.
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Old 09-21-2004, 01:51 PM   #232
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Thank you. I hope everyone realizes that we do try to moderate for the good of all the post-ers, not just to pick on newbies or something.
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Old 09-21-2004, 02:53 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by thrillme

This is what you atheists.....
This statement is every bit as offensive and inappropiate as "you Christians" .

Please cease, everybody.
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Old 09-21-2004, 02:54 PM   #234
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How about this...

You atheists...
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Old 09-21-2004, 02:58 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by thrillme
This is what you atheists don't seem to understand, or won't admit, you do have faith in things, you never seen, heard, witnessed, or read of eye witness reports.
I diagree in oh so many ways to this statement.

Im an atheist and admit that my beliefs are just that, beliefs.
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Old 09-21-2004, 03:17 PM   #236
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Annnnnnnnd the point of derailment has been reached.
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