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Old 09-19-2004, 06:44 PM   #211
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Originally posted by beli


lol. No, its the object used to do the cooking. It can be anything - half a 44 gallon drum, a little temple made out of bricks with a hotplate on top, a sideways shopping cart , or a big fancy purchased thingie with lots of burners.
Yay! Back to the important things -- planning the party!
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Old 09-19-2004, 11:51 PM   #212
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You're not even sure if they are there. I'm sure someone who knows someone who heard something about the Bible told you something similar to what you're now stating as fact.
Actually, I was being sarcastic. Apparently you didn't catch that, but yes, I actually know they are there.

Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Leviticus 24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Edit: After reading the Matthew verses again, basically he's saying we should kill evildoers with kindness? Maybe not a direct contradiction of Ex. Lev. and Deut., but pretty darn close.
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:03 AM   #213
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Originally posted by beli


lol. No, its the object used to do the cooking. It can be anything - half a 44 gallon drum, a little temple made out of bricks with a hotplate on top, a sideways shopping cart , or a big fancy purchased thingie with lots of burners.
Ah, it's all so clear to me now.

My brother has a big fancy purchased thing with lots of burners - THE BEST steak, pork chops and chicken ever have come off that grill.
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:07 AM   #214
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I was repondering your question this afternoon. I think people in the USA say barbeque as in

We ate barbeque

which makes no sense here at all unless you are one of those weird Indian gurus who can digest metal.
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Old 09-20-2004, 02:15 AM   #215
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Wow, this thread is all over the place, so my post will really fit in.

Well here you go, a response from a real life, Bible reading/believing Christian. Keep in mind, that as a Christian, I will reference biblical concepts, ideas, this is usually the point some skeptics stop reading and disregard what I post. I read through yours, so I guess common courtesy, would say you read through mine.

I've actually read the Old Testament from Genesis to midway of Job, chapters in between Job and Malachai, and all the New Testament, sans Revelation, of which I've read parts here and there.

I'm pretty sure I've read more of the Bible than you. That's a actually a big reason I chose Christianity.

I'm told, now this is only what I've been told, so anyone please feel free to correct me; compared to Protestants/Orthodox, Catholics do not place as much weight in the Bible, reading it, studying it, or it's authority. Some Protestants don't either, but compared to Catholics, more so?

You say you were brought up Catholic for 17 years, well you have more of an understanding of Catholicism as I do. I was brought up in the "Protestant" form of Christianity, for about 17 years. Since 17, I actually started figuring things out for myself, looking into other religions, philosophies, and basically I chose Christianity because it made the most sense to me. (I'm guessing your laughing at me, or are really fascinated by me).

Original Sin. A concept lost on me. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they introduced the "ability" to sin, what some Protestants might call "sin nature," but we have the choice to not sin. We are born innocent, but have the capacity to sin.

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FACT - Christianity started as blackmail. If you give 100 bits of gold to the Church, your time in purgatory will be reduced to 500 years, if you don't, you will have to wait for 5000 years!
To most Protestants, the concept of purgatory and paying penances, is somewhat "foreign," for want of a better term. There is only Heaven and Hell. You can't pay anything to get into Heaven, Jesus was the payment,.. I have some disagreements with Catholicism, but I respect those who are Catholic. Many in my family are. People were baptised, usually immediately after accepting Jesus as the Messiah, and repenting of their sins.

The Bible states, in different verses, that the Earth is round, hangs upon nothing, and rotates. Hmm, from my basic science education, I'm pretty sure the Earth is kinda round, from space photos, is suspended in space, and I'm informed by scientists, that the Earth rotates. Science confirmed this, the Bible was written centuries before the telescope was invented, and waaaayyy before the "Space race" by the Russians and Americans.

The Bible doesn't out right state it, but does allude to creature, that sounds like a dinosaur, a creature with a tail compared to a cedar tree. Can't possibly be referring to an elephant or hippo, cos they have rather puny tails. Maybe if the verse said a tail like a reed, but no, it says cedar tree.

Job 41 if you want to read it.

The Bible has references to currents, the water cycle (rain falls, gets caught in streams/rivers, gets back to the sea, starts again), underwater mountains; how can someone know there are mountains underwater (which has been discovered), when there were no submarines, lucky guess? Must have been lucky with the Earth's features too, water cycle, ocean currents.

Oh, and the Bible says there is only 1 race, the human one, so racism can never be justified with the Bible.

THE MORE YOU KNOW, THE LESS YOU BELIEVE

You know, when I first heard about evolution, I thought it was bit strange, but then I believed in what some might think strange things too. However, the more I learn about evolution, the less I believe it, the Big Bang works if you throw out the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics. Evolution has less complex things, going to a state of higher complexity and order.

Carbon dating huh?

"One part of the Vollosovitch mammoth carbon dated at 29,500 years and another part at 44,000.
--Troy L. Pewe, Quaternary Stratigraphic Nomenclature in Unglaciated Central Alaska, Geological Survey Professional Paper 862 (U.S. Gov. printing office, 1975) p. 30.

"One part of Dima [a baby frozen mammoth] was 40,000, another part was 26,000 and the "wood immediately around the carcass" was 9-10,000.
--Troy L. Pewe, Quaternary Stratigraphic Nomenclature in Unglaciated Central Alaska, Geological Survey Professional Paper 862 (U.S. Gov. printing office, 1975) p. 30

Not that accurate really.

Follow science then, cause and effect. If the Big bang is true, it had to have a cause. Where did the particles of matter (effect), come from (cause). Where did oxygen and hydrogen (effects) come from?

Evolution may work for living things, but what of the Universe. If you can believe the Universe, always just existed, well there you go, many Christians feel the same way, God just is. He has no cause, just is. God is believed to be supernatural, ie. not subject to nature. Matter and energy can be created and destroyed, by something not subject to natural laws; that's what supernatural means, above or not subject to nature.

Jesus walked on water, that would go against nature.

Give me your explanation for the origin of the universe, life, non-life (rocks) came from, if cause and effect is true. What's the cause of all this, I believe God was the cause. Lots of people with advanced science and math degrees are creationists.

I don't believe a pen, just appeared out of nowhere, I know someone made them, so how could I possibly think something like the human brain, (which scientists barely understand, how it works, etc), to be the result of chance, or accident/no design or creator whatsoever?
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Old 09-20-2004, 04:45 AM   #216
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13.7 billion years ago a singularity rapidly expanded during an inflationary period. Ripping the universe into existance (refer to the CMBR data, I am going basic here so please go on).

Energy merged into matter and was scattered across the universe according to quantum fluctuations.

The fundamental forces of the universe take hold and quark confinement occurs, this creates the first basic element, hydrogen as well as a little bit of helium.

Big clouds of hydrogen collapse under the effect of gravity eventually the pressure builds up enough for nuclear fusion to occur, this forms new elements up to Iron (Fe).

When they die some of the larger stars explode in a brilliant supernova, these events create quantities of elements beyond Iron such as Uranium.

After a few generations of stars (billions of years) live and die the universe is populated by various bits of matter from which our solar system forms from.

A masssive gas cloud made of the remnants of dead stars collapses, this collapsing matter contains all the material for the sun and planets.

This gas settles into a disk, at the center a protostar. When the protostars pressure/tempreture reaches that of fusion gamma ray/pressure bursts initiate planet formation by melding outlying material into globules. Under the force of gravity these globules attract to eachother eventually forming massive planetoids which collide and form bigger planetoids eventually forming planets. By the end of accretion you have a solar system comprising of 4 terrestrial world, 2 gas giants, 2 ice giants and a number of very strange ice worlds.

On one of the terrestrial worlds liquid water occurs in some specific locations, it also hosts an atmosphere. On this world rudimentary chemical compounds appear and interact, lipids form and integrate creating elaborate molecules. Given a lot of time and a lot of reactions a rudimentary form of life is formed. A self replicating molecule that takes in material from its environment for energy and expels waste. This replicates successfully and changes the world. Natural selection favours certain adaptations creating diverse forms of this molecule, eventually it is able to transform the hadean atmosphere into something more survivable for life as we know it. Oxygen is produced as a waste product, this changed the atmosphere significantly - evidence for the introduction of oxygen is seen in the Banded Iron Formations, where you have iron in both native and oxidized states indiciative of a seasonal change in oxygen levels. This is around 3.9 Billion years ago.

Life exists on the planet, the conditions begin to change and new organisms spread and diversify around the world. They reproduce and slight mutations during reproduction as well as sexual exchange of genetic information ensure that there is change, various population pressures means that over different areas different adaptations take place and are carried through, this takes place over billions of years eventually forming more common life. You go from Archae to prokaryotes to eukaryotic organisms. This takes a lot of time but it can be observed in the fossil record/

Life continues its evolutionary path, the fish evolve in the oceans, then a modified swim bladder provides a storage of oxygen, this leads to the evolution of the lung, which leads to more interesting vertebrate evolution. Mammal like reptiles wind up ruling the earth, they evolve into dinosaurs and in turn the dinosaurs are wiped out and mammals become the dominant group. At the pinnacle of this a type of primate manages to walk upright and has a freak mutation granting it a form of insanity known as conciousness and the ability to communicate (not that simple, just rushing over here).

This first humans survives, spreads out and successive extensions manages to conquer the world. Masters fire, stone tools then domestication and copper. Eventually leading to great civilizations, monetary systems and written language. We are now at a point where we can use computers to communicate at fast speeds and travel short distances in space.

One does not need to use God to explain these things, if we look at the world objectively then we can explain these by natural processes. The universe alone is far more interesting if we seek to understand it than if we make ourselves blind to it in the name of faith.

p.s. I doubt that the leviathan refers to a living dinosaur. The difference between Mankind and the Dinosaurs was 62 million years. The fossil record demonstrates this as well as radioisotope dathing on the volcanics above any fossil beds. It is far more likely that people discovered fossils and invented the myths of great beasts that walked the earth with adamite man - remember that mythology is usually made from a piece of fact.
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Old 09-20-2004, 04:56 AM   #217
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The big bang does not require cause, you are infering that from an exterior reference point there is such a dimension as time and that is an unfounded assumption. We do not know what exists beyond the universe, it may well be a higher dimensional space supporting a variety of dimensions floating like branes but from what we know the big bang occured and is the logical explanation for how the universe formed. This does not remove the possibility of God however it by no means verifies it.

Also I think that you are at risk of creation science logic. Evolution is a fact, it is also a theory. When scientists speake of scientific theories we are describing models that explain and predict observations, they must be falsifiabe - i.e. proven worng and often change. For example newtons law of universal gravitation was a great theory - it describes kinematics nicely however it has trouble with dealing on a universal level as it assumes instantaneous force transmission, Einstein came up with General Relativity which can do everything Newton did except his theory takes into account the speed of light (well technically the speed of information). Now we are at a stage where we have two theories that each work well (Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity) but they are incompatible, they must be reconciled. When they become reconciled a new theory of "Quantum Gravity" will become the best theory to explain observation. You see how the progression of knowledge drives the development of theory, it is not just plucking concepts out of thin air - it is meticulous consideration and developments.

Evolution is a fact. If you look at the fossil record, the history of life on the planet you can see it is not static. Species live and die, over time new species arise due to population pressures. Now we see this change, this evolution that observation makes it a fact. Now the theory is what drives evoltion, Darwin used the theory of Natural Selecftion but subsequent extension has crafted more apt theories to describe the biological processes between biotic and abiotic factors that drive evoltion. Steven Jay Gould wrote a rather good essay on this topic, evolution is both a theory and a fact - I reccomend reading about evolution from an objective site before being sucked in by the creation science, religious anti-Darwinism BS. Being religious does not mean that one has to be a fool, learn about the world and enjoy your knowledge, do not become an idiot because some hack tells you knowledge is bad.
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Old 09-20-2004, 11:32 AM   #218
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This does not remove the possibility of God however it by no means verifies it.
Well that's it. Verification of God would not be faith, if God were just appear and say, here I am, would people still believe? If God did signs and miracles, oh well Jesus was claimed to do those things. This will come as offensive to people aren't Christians, but it's believed Jesus is God, but in a physical form. Jesus was the proof, people don't believe that, then so be it.

I wouldn't make the mistake of saying Jesus was not a real person, as some claim, secular writings of Tacitus or Pliny the Younger have references to Jesus.

From a Christian standpoint, God will eventually "prove" His existance once and for all, but by that time it will be too late to repent.

I was taught in secular science classes, about the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics, how do they play into the Big Bang theory? THey don't apply or is that science can be contradictory, in some cases. I guess I get my info from bias sources, but a lot of the people who are creationists, were atheists. Lee Strobel for one. I've met a guy, who first introduced me to how to counter evolution, who was an atheist for 15 years. Many claim, and have showed the articles and quotes, that fossils aren't proof for evolution. Many fossils used to prove evolution, were just bits and pieces, a pig's tooth, was one fossil used to prove evolution, which was proven to be a hoax.

There are no objective sites or sources regarding evolution/creation science. Stephen J. Gould is hardly objective.

The Bible states dinosaurs, as well as other creatures, and people, lived on the earth at the same time. I know this shocks both Christians and people who don't believe the Bible.

I have heard one theory that states dinosaurs were killed do to climate and temperature change.

Genesis would indicate this, as the world was significantly different, before the Flood.

(I know, you probably roll your eyes at me for believing this, but it works for me).

Debates about evolution and creationism are held all the time, so at least there is dialogue.

Studying science actually made me more aware of God, I honestly don't think so many of biological processes, photosynthesis, our bodies turning oxygen into carbon dioxide, while plants do the opposite, is just pure chance of happening. Which is why creationism is being replaced by the term intelligent design. There appears to be rhyme and reason, as Bono put it, to the world, as messed up as the world can be, there is some order and structure to it. Humans built structures, developed political/social institutions, because an intelligent being designed us with the capacity to do those things.

Creationism puts a higher value on humanity. We weren't just dumb cavemen running around, we were divinely created beings with the capacity to even deny a creator.

Even animals, birds migrate? I say an intelligent being designed them that way.

Oh well, I doubt I made much of a claim, but I think many people already have their minds made up before they enter debates on religion/God/dieties. Bias always finds its way in, whichever side you're on.
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:43 PM   #219
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OK. I've observed this thread and how it has gone, and I've gotta say something:

What is the point of this thread? Are you trying to convert believers into atheists? The scathing tone in your first post instantly nullifies your credibility and only serves to take people aback.

For the record, I'm an agnostic. I believed in Christianity for the first 15 years of my life, then became an atheist for another two, and now consider myself an agnostic. I don't have enough faith in either side to fully throw my beliefs in either direction.

But the way you came out at Christians is just dumb. You're not winning any converts like that.

The fact that you call Christianity and anyone who believes in its tenets as "plain fucking stupid" just goes to show how ignorant you are. By your logic, my mother, grandparents, aunts and uncles...all stupid. Leonardo da Vinci...plain fucking stupid. Sir Isaac Newton...plain fucking stupid.

You see where I'm going with this?

Your arguments, while some are valid, really don't have any logical connection when you take such a harsh tone.

I still don't see the point of this thread in any case, though.
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Old 09-20-2004, 07:33 PM   #220
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The strata of the fossil record are not formed by flooding. You find shales and mudstones with very specific layers, this is formed in low energy depositional environments, floods produce massive structureless lumps of material and preservation of fossils is random at best. Science is objective because it begins with no assumptions, it observes and makes logical inferences.

The evolution of metabolism is based on chemistry, it did not just appear as a stable system of plants and animals, it started as archaea which used the splitting of hydrogen sulphide (H2S) as the energy source which went into the biochemical cycles to produce ATP. The process of fixing CO2 produced oxygen as a waste product which eventually transformed the atmosphere. Once this had occured some organisms evolved ways of utilizing oxygen in their metabolism. The processes do not require an all intelligent being to design them. ID introduces theistic principles into science, even if it does not mention God by name, this is not scientific and it is not as valid a theory as that of evolution. Paleontology is a specific discipline which uncovers the history of life on the planet, there is nothing within Intelligent Design that cannot be better described using objective scientific investigation. ID was invented as a wedge-tactic by the creationists to drive God into the science classroom and transform the concept of secular education into religious indocrination. This perpetuates ignorance and reinfoces falsehoods (such as the concept of evolution being Lamarkian, so giraffes will stretch their necks after they are born and then their offspring have long necks - not true).

And in regards to the laws of thermodynamics. Firstly evolution does not counter it as is often claimed because the earth is not a closed system, we recieve large ammounts of energy from the sun and from within the earths crust. There is no reason to say that the emergence of complex life forms violates thermodynamics.
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:21 AM   #221
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Originally posted by DaveC
OK. I've observed this thread and how it has gone, and I've gotta say something:

What is the point of this thread? Are you trying to convert believers into atheists? The scathing tone in your first post instantly nullifies your credibility and only serves to take people aback.

For the record, I'm an agnostic. I believed in Christianity for the first 15 years of my life, then became an atheist for another two, and now consider myself an agnostic. I don't have enough faith in either side to fully throw my beliefs in either direction.

But the way you came out at Christians is just dumb. You're not winning any converts like that.

The fact that you call Christianity and anyone who believes in its tenets as "plain fucking stupid" just goes to show how ignorant you are. By your logic, my mother, grandparents, aunts and uncles...all stupid. Leonardo da Vinci...plain fucking stupid. Sir Isaac Newton...plain fucking stupid.

You see where I'm going with this?

Your arguments, while some are valid, really don't have any logical connection when you take such a harsh tone.

I still don't see the point of this thread in any case, though.
Okay your one of those people who twists and turns things and takes things out of context, and just skimmed my first post and picked up keywords. I initally called people who live and breathe the bible fkn stupid, which was probably harsh and I changed it immediately to 'quite ignorant'. (Based on the factual voidness of the Bible and people still completely devote their lives to it, live and breathe it. I explained how the bible was void in several later posts, which you obviously couldn't be bothered reading.)
You said I called every Christian in the world, and everyone who believes 'fucking stupid'. If you can't even read, please leave.
You are the one who is ignorant. Read my inital post and all that follow otherwise you are wasting everyones time. I never EVER called Christians in general 'fucking stupid.' I never called your father 'fucking stupid.' I'm getting tired of defending myself to people like you. And if you think I am trying to win converts on a U2 forum, that's just idiotic. I am trying to understand what a Christian is thinking, when he\she devotes his\her life to 'God.' And some of us have learnt quite a bit I believe, especially me.
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:24 AM   #222
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BTW, A wanderer, I love reading your posts, you are so right. Finally someone that can think logically without bringing 'personal belief' based on no actual facts. (no offence to those who did, this approach is just so much more appealing to me.)
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:29 AM   #223
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I still just wanna know why Acrobatman hates my freedom to be simplistic. lol.
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:31 AM   #224
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PS Acrobatman, no offense but I think you protest too much. I've read the whole thread and you're right, the discussion has gotten interesting. But it started off pretty harsh and I can't really blame someone who gets bent out of shape. Threads that start with 'you people' (or similar) tend to be that way.
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:33 AM   #225
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whoops, in that second post I mean u2fanman, not acrobatman. Apologies for any confusion.


There's too many 'men' in this place.
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