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Old 09-17-2004, 04:27 PM   #151
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Originally posted by U2democrat
Let me throw some more meat in here...what about agnostics? I know someone who is an agnostic. The way he puts it is that he doesn't believe in God, but is open to the fact that their may be a God.
That's pretty much the way I see it. I don't think that there's enough conclusive evidence on either side for me to decide one way or the other. Not believing in a god requires just as much faith (in my mind) as believing in one.

Though I must note that I believe that if a god does exist it's most likely in the "first mover" theory mold suggested by Aquinas.

The First Way

Edited for stupid misspellings.
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Old 09-17-2004, 04:32 PM   #152
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Originally posted by beli


Pleased to be explaing this? Im not quite following what you are saying.
Just that fervent anti-religiousness isn't limited to those who were members of, and then left, a religion. I've known a couple of athiests who have created their own anti-religion religions without ever having been part of a religious congregation.
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Old 09-17-2004, 04:40 PM   #153
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Funny thing about Atheists is that they tend to be more obsessed about God than some Christians.....
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Old 09-17-2004, 05:01 PM   #154
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Atheists are ONLY interested in God, thats the point.

Christianity is a RELIGION and thusly has many facets.

*really need to do stuff with my children. Will be back later*
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Old 09-17-2004, 08:08 PM   #155
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Originally posted by ThatGuy
Just that fervent anti-religiousness isn't limited to those who were members of, and then left, a religion. I've known a couple of athiests who have created their own anti-religion religions without ever having been part of a religious congregation.
Agreed.

Apologies if my previous post sounds a bit narky. Mustn't post when running out the door lol
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Old 09-17-2004, 08:39 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Funny thing about Atheists is that they tend to be more obsessed about God than some Christians.....
I think it's because many want to know just what prompts so many people to believe something they find totally nonsensical.
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:21 PM   #157
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You know what I find interesting?

The more you read about Jesus Christ, the more real he becomes.

Don't you think that with all that we know today, a fiasco of this magnitude would have already been discovered? God has made it so that he doesn't force himself into your heart.

It is frustrating for Christians to have a God like that. A gentle, loving God that almost waits to be accepted. I wish God would send some enormous undeniable sign (which I'm sure people like you would probably still find a way to explain) to remove all doubt. But see, the problem with that is that his "believers" will no longer be driven by their faiith. What merit would there be in following a God that has proven himself to you? It wouldn't be faith. There would be nothing special about your devotion for him. He loves us so much that he gives us a choice. Whether to be in the light or not.

There have been people who have made it their burden to prove Jesus' inexistance and have "failed" in their own terms because they themselves became Chrisitans.

Go ahead, read a little about Christ. Go to the root of it all. Don't go to a legalist Chrisitan who makes it all seem like an elitist club. God loves us all. Without discrimation. Except he is waiting for you to make the choice on your own.

So really I would say the quote (when it comes to Chistinaity) should be:

"The more you know, The more you believe"

Any questions at all or just conversation feel free to PM me.

God Bless.
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Old 09-17-2004, 11:05 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
You know what I find interesting?

The more you read about Jesus Christ, the more real he becomes.

Don't you think that with all that we know today, a fiasco of this magnitude would have already been discovered? God has made it so that he doesn't force himself into your heart.

It is frustrating for Christians to have a God like that. A gentle, loving God that almost waits to be accepted. I wish God would send some enormous undeniable sign (which I'm sure people like you would probably still find a way to explain) to remove all doubt. But see, the problem with that is that his "believers" will no longer be driven by their faiith. What merit would there be in following a God that has proven himself to you? It wouldn't be faith. There would be nothing special about your devotion for him. He loves us so much that he gives us a choice. Whether to be in the light or not.

There have been people who have made it their burden to prove Jesus' inexistance and have "failed" in their own terms because they themselves became Chrisitans.

Go ahead, read a little about Christ. Go to the root of it all. Don't go to a legalist Chrisitan who makes it all seem like an elitist club. God loves us all. Without discrimation. Except he is waiting for you to make the choice on your own.

So really I would say the quote (when it comes to Chistinaity) should be:

"The more you know, The more you believe"

Any questions at all or just conversation feel free to PM me.

God Bless.
If it works for you, great. About your quote "The more you know, the more you believe"...well, for me it has been the exact opposite. In a sense, although you said it very nicely, and I think you meant no offense to anyone...what you just wrote is the equivalent of me saying you are ignorant for believing as you do. I'm not ignorant about various religions/beliefs, I simply do not accept them as true. I'm an intelligent, educated heathen.

I'm interested in understanding why people believe as they do -- whatever that belief. And the more different their belief is to mine, the more interesting it is to me to understand. I mean why, upon reading the same Bible does one person go "OK, that's the word of God and I will base my life on it" yet I go "Ok, some good ideas there...but there are equally good ideas in the Bhagavad Gita (etc, etc,), so what's the big deal?"?

I'm sure some of the questions I ask seem impertinent to many, but I think it's important to explore why we believe as we do (whatever that is), and sometimes that is uncomfortable.
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Old 09-18-2004, 04:00 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
You know what I find interesting?

The more you read about Jesus Christ, the more real he becomes.

Don't you think that with all that we know today, a fiasco of this magnitude would have already been discovered? God has made it so that he doesn't force himself into your heart.

It is frustrating for Christians to have a God like that. A gentle, loving God that almost waits to be accepted. I wish God would send some enormous undeniable sign (which I'm sure people like you would probably still find a way to explain) to remove all doubt. But see, the problem with that is that his "believers" will no longer be driven by their faiith. What merit would there be in following a God that has proven himself to you? It wouldn't be faith. There would be nothing special about your devotion for him. He loves us so much that he gives us a choice. Whether to be in the light or not.

There have been people who have made it their burden to prove Jesus' inexistance and have "failed" in their own terms because they themselves became Chrisitans.

Go ahead, read a little about Christ. Go to the root of it all. Don't go to a legalist Chrisitan who makes it all seem like an elitist club. God loves us all. Without discrimation. Except he is waiting for you to make the choice on your own.

So really I would say the quote (when it comes to Chistinaity) should be:

"The more you know, The more you believe"

Any questions at all or just conversation feel free to PM me.

God Bless.
Alert! Alert! Conversion attempt imminent!
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Old 09-18-2004, 05:16 AM   #160
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I think a lot of reasons people don't believe is that they doubt the authenticiity of the writings, or the writers themselves. They find holes in the stories. A lot of what has been written here, the changing stuff to take in Roman pagans, questions about who wrote what at what time, etc. I have heard expressed by many agnostics I knew, most of whom ended up becoming kind of religious. I think a person who asks a lot of questions is at least someone who is interested. While I do see that a lot of the historical content can be questioned in some ways, and I have wondered about things myself, it doesn't take away my faith, because any of the mistakes made were human error. I often say, don't blame God, blame religion,or what some men have made of it. I am a believer in God and Jesus, in concept, in general, not every single detail. I know there is something there, and I don't let the failings of men ruin it for me. I take that into consideration and go on. I have personally felt it, and I know it's true. That's why it bothers me so much to see people belittling someone's beliefs.
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Old 09-18-2004, 05:17 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I've stayed out of this for a while. Based on this comment, I am not sure you have a deep, meaningful understanding of Christian doctrine and the difference between Catholicism, Protestantism or Christianity.

Well this explains why I'm going straight to the burning pits of deepest hell. Did you know I'm a religious half caste?

Woe is me.
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Old 09-18-2004, 05:21 AM   #162
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Don't worry Angela, Im sure that you will get off lightly and go to pergatory .

In all seriousness though most major religions have core truths at their heart. Things that seem to be universal human qualities. I think that anything that makes people lead better lives and be more tollerant should at least be respected, anything that does otherwise must be rejected.
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Old 09-18-2004, 05:41 AM   #163
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It's only when the leading of a better life and a lack of tolernace takes over, that I start getting problems with it all.

Well....that and the blatant hypocrisy which I see too often.
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Old 09-18-2004, 07:13 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
It's only when the leading of a better life and a lack of tolernace takes over, that I start getting problems with it all.

Well....that and the blatant hypocrisy which I see too often.
I agree, and that's why I say, don't blame God, blame religion. It makes me sad to see people turn against God because of what a few flawed humans are doing. That's why I keep it seperated. I believe it is very possible to have a relationship with God, and even a better one, when you don't go to church and get involved in a lot of groups. I've seen so much bad, many times more than good, come from the way people judge and feel about each other because they go to the 'wrong' church. Bono's famous quote said: "Organized religion is what happens when God leaves the room."
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Old 09-18-2004, 08:09 AM   #165
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Excellently put. I agree.

What are the 10 commandments? Basic tenets of Christianity? My wording here might be off, but bear with me. One of these is thou shalt not kill. Understandably, this is so fundamental, it is written as a law of man now too. We just dont kill people. Yet some who are self proclaimed Christians support the death penalty. How the fuck is this justified? It truly confounds me.
I trounce up to church one day in my mini skirt and fishnets. What will the self proclaimed Christians think of me? What reaction woudl I get? "The kind of reaction someone wearing that deserves"? Indeed. Thou shalt no judge. My arse. Truly.
Geez I could go on. What are the whole 10 anyway?

Google time.
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