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Old 08-31-2008, 02:17 PM   #571
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all these discussions about being qualified:

qualifications are nice and all, if you have done your job 20 years arguably you know more then with 2 years experience

but does that make the "qualified" leader a better leader than the "less-qualified"?

if Obama had been working in politics for 2 decades before runnin for President, do you seriously think he would still advocate change like he does? this Senator also stands for a new political leadership: someone who has 5 years experience is maybe not completely digested and spit out by the political system. lobbies, compromises, tactics.

arugably someone who has been working in politics for 5 years is still closer to the average joe on the street and knows more about real life and worries of the folks that vote him, about real changes, than someone who has moved in this political world of crooks and liars for decades.

just sayin´.
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:24 PM   #572
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all these discussions about being qualified:

qualifications are nice and all, if you have done your job 20 years arguably you know more then with 2 years experience

but does that make the "qualified" leader a better leader than the "less-qualified"?

if Obama had been working in politics for 2 decades before runnin for President, do you seriously think he would still advocate change like he does? this Senator also stands for a new political leadership: someone who has 5 years experience is maybe not completely digested and spit out by the political system. lobbies, compromises, tactics.

arugably someone who has been working in politics for 5 years is still closer to the average joe on the street and knows more about real life and worries of the folks that vote him, about real changes, than someone who has moved in this political world of crooks and liars for decades.

just sayin´.

Is Obama only all talk?


Palin ran as a change agent she has been in office 2 years and has a great record as a reformer, a change agent, that actually delivered on change wirhin less than two years.

Did Obama run as a change agent four years ago ?

Does he have any reputation for shaking things up in the Senate? What has he done? Is there anything to back up this talk of change.

Has McCain been a change agent?

Has he shook things up in the Senate?

Is he a reformer?


Who is the real reformer?

Which V P candidate is the real reformer?

Which candidate only talks about change?
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:25 PM   #573
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She has been to Kuwait.

and that is more than could be said of Obama.



by this logic, she's better equipped to deal with Putin because Alaska is closer to Russia than either Hawaii, Hyde Park, or DC (not to mention Phoenix, Sedona, San Diego, Crystal City, etc.)

please, point to me the evidence that Sarah Palin has given 1/100th the depth of thought, research, study, and policy proposals that Barack Obama has given in regards to the Persian Gulf.

you're free to disagree with Obama. but then, you'd have something concrete with which to intelligently disagree.

Ms. Palin has no such record, no such background, no such research, no such policy recommendations. nothing. she's a total neophyte on foreign policy, as most serious Republicans, and everyone in Alaska, is admitting today.
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:27 PM   #574
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Is Obama only all talk?


Palin ran as a change agent she has been in office 2 years and has a great record as a reformer, a change agent, that actually delivered on change wirhin less than two years.

Did Obama run as a change agent four years ago ?

Does he have any reputation for shaking things up in the Senate? What has he done? Is there anything to back up this talk of change.

Has McCain been a change agent?

Has he shook things up in the Senate?

Is he a reformer?


Who is the real reformer?

Which V P candidate is the real reformer?

Which candidate only talks about change?



don't look now deep,

but you're making the same wild leaps and equivocations that you've accused Obama supporters of doing.
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:30 PM   #575
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1/100th the depth of thought, research, study, and policy proposals that Barack Obama has given in regards to the Persian Gulf.

How much confidence are we supposed to put in paper work generated by committee members to serve what purposes?

Fill web pages?


His opinions on Iraq were about as good as mine.

The difference, I am not running for office and I can admit I made mistakes.
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:33 PM   #576
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don't look now deep,

but you're making the same wild leaps and equivocations that you've accused Obama supporters of doing.

I am only stating my current thoughts and opinions.

I believe we all have bias'.

Though many of us claim to be objective.


Do you not believe it is accurate to say that both McCain and Palin have tangible records as reformers?
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:36 PM   #577
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How much confidence are we supposed to put in paper work generated by committee members to serve what purposes?

Fill web pages?


His opinions on Iraq were about as good as mine.

The difference, I am not running for office and I can admit I made mistakes.

most people in Washington will tell you

that you will learn more about a country by talking to experts, academics military brass, contractors, etc., and gathering a wealth of information to process, analyze, and synthesize, than you ever will by making one of these PR "fact-finding" missions where one walks around in a hermetically sealed bubble, learns very little, and winds up looking like this:



while talking about how lovely and safe the market is.
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:37 PM   #578
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Do you not believe it is accurate to say that both McCain and Palin have tangible records as reformers?


yes.

but, as we're going to learn, claims of Palin's record as a reformer are greatly exaggerated.

and it is also accurate to say that Palin has a tangible record of abusing her political power for personal gain.

so, in the Cheney mold, i suppose this is a positive?
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:51 PM   #579
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most people in Washington will tell you

that you will learn more about a country by talking to experts, academics military brass, contractors, etc., and gathering a wealth of information to process, analyze, and synthesize, than you ever will by making one of these PR "fact-finding" missions where one walks around in a hermetically sealed bubble, learns very little, and winds up looking like this:



while talking about how lovely and safe the market is.

I have a very public record (in this forum) of being against the surge.

Of wanting to just draw down, and pull out and let the Iraqis solve if for themselves, or not.

I was sick of the daily body counts, I had extreme resentment for Bush/ Cheney / Rumsfeld.
I believed there was not a realistic chance for any success in Iraq. And to be honest, I wanted this major fuck up squarely on the hands of Bush / Cheney.

It was an easy call for me. What did I have at risk?


So I was 100% with Obama and not with McCain.

btw, Bush/ Cheney were not with McCain either.
It took them what 18 months and 2000? more dead Americans before they joined McCain with the surge.

McCain had a better understanding by going to Iraq 14 times since 2004.
Obama and myself did not go even once.
And most of the experts that had been there did support the surge.

I know why I got it wrong. What factors (bias') influenced my judgment.

Why did Obama get it wrong? What influenced his judgment?

Palin went to Kuwait to visit the troops and offer her support, and people keep telling me she is from a small state.

Why didn't Obama go? How many enlisted men are from Illinois? How many Illinois National Guard have been deployed ?

He was planning on running for Commander in Chief.
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:12 PM   #580
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Following up on some of the things Boston01 said last night...his claims about the circumstances under which Obama was elected to the Illinois state senate and the U.S. senate are more or less true, although I would argue with the description of his actions during the state senate campaign as 'screwing over' the person.

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Obama knows his way around a ballot
Barack Obama

By David Jackson and Ray Long | Tribune staff reporters
6:48 PM CDT, April 3, 2007
The day after New Year's 1996, operatives for Barack Obama filed into a barren hearing room of the Chicago Board of Election Commissioners.

There they began the tedious process of challenging hundreds of signatures on the nominating petitions of state Sen. Alice Palmer, the longtime progressive activist from the city's South Side. And they kept challenging petitions until every one of Obama's four Democratic primary rivals was forced off the ballot.

Fresh from his work as a civil rights lawyer and head of a voter registration project that expanded access to the ballot box, Obama launched his first campaign for the Illinois Senate saying he wanted to empower disenfranchised citizens.

But in that initial bid for political office, Obama quickly mastered the bare-knuckle arts of Chicago electoral politics. His overwhelming legal onslaught signaled his impatience to gain office, even if that meant elbowing aside an elder stateswoman like Palmer.

A close examination of Obama's first campaign clouds the image he has cultivated throughout his political career: The man now running for president on a message of giving a voice to the voiceless first entered public office not by leveling the playing field, but by clearing it.

One of the candidates he eliminated, long-shot contender Gha-is Askia, now says that Obama's petition challenges belied his image as a champion of the little guy and crusader for voter rights.

"Why say you're for a new tomorrow, then do old-style Chicago politics to remove legitimate candidates?" Askia said. "He talks about honor and democracy, but what honor is there in getting rid of every other candidate so you can run scot-free? Why not let the people decide?"

In a recent interview, Obama granted that "there's a legitimate argument to be made that you shouldn't create barriers to people getting on the ballot."

But the unsparing legal tactics were justified, he said, by obvious flaws in his opponents' signature sheets. "To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had been set up," Obama recalled.

"I gave some thought to … should people be on the ballot even if they didn't meet the requirements," he said. "My conclusion was that if you couldn't run a successful petition drive, then that raised questions in terms of how effective a representative you were going to be."

Asked whether the district's primary voters were well-served by having only one candidate, Obama smiled and said: "I think they ended up with a very good state senator."

Obama behind challenges

America has been defined in part by civil rights and good government battles fought out in Chicago's 13th District, which in 1996 spanned Hyde Park mansions, South Shore bungalows and poverty-bitten precincts of Englewood.

It was in this part of the city that an eager reform Democrat by the name of Abner Mikva first entered elected office in the 1950s. And here a young, brash minister named Jesse Jackson ran Operation Breadbasket, leading marchers who sought to pressure grocery chains to hire minorities.

Palmer served the district in the Illinois Senate for much of the 1990s. Decades earlier, she was working as a community organizer in the area when Obama was growing up in Hawaii and Indonesia. She risked her safe seat to run for Congress and touted Obama as a suitable successor, according to news accounts and interviews.

But when Palmer got clobbered in that November 1995 special congressional race, her supporters asked Obama to fold his campaign so she could easily retain her state Senate seat.

Obama not only refused to step aside, he filed challenges that nullified Palmer's hastily gathered nominating petitions, forcing her to withdraw.

"I liked Alice Palmer a lot. I thought she was a good public servant," Obama said. "It was very awkward. That part of it I wish had played out entirely differently."

His choice divided veteran Chicago political activists.

"There was friction about the decision he made," said City Colleges of Chicago professor emeritus Timuel Black, who tried to negotiate with Obama on Palmer's behalf. "There were deep disagreements."

Had Palmer survived the petition challenge, Obama would have faced the daunting task of taking on an incumbent senator. Palmer's elimination marked the first of several fortuitous political moments in Obama's electoral success: He won the 2004 primary and general elections for U.S. Senate after tough challengers imploded when their messy divorce files were unsealed.

Obama contended that in the case of the 1996 race, in which he routed token opposition in the general election, he was ready to compete in the primary if necessary.

"We actually ran a terrific campaign up until the point we knew that we weren't going to have to appear on the ballot with anybody," Obama said. "I mean, we had prepared for it. We had raised money. We had tons of volunteers. There was enormous enthusiasm."

And he defended his use of ballot maneuvers: "If you can win, you should win and get to work doing the people's business."

At the time, though, Obama seemed less at ease with the decision, according to aides. They said the first-time candidate initially expressed reservations about using challenges to eliminate all his fellow Democrats.

"He wondered if we should knock everybody off the ballot. How would that look?" said Ronald Davis, the paid Obama campaign consultant whom Obama referred to as his "guru of petitions."

In the end, Davis filed objections to all four of Obama's Democratic rivals at the candidate's behest.

While Obama didn't attend the hearings, "he wanted us to call him every night and let him know what we were doing," Davis said, noting that Palmer and the others seemed unprepared for the challenges.

But Obama didn't gloat over the victories. "I don't think he thought it was, you know, sporting," said Will Burns, a 1996 Obama campaign volunteer who assisted with the petition challenges. "He wasn't very proud of it."

Endorsement or informal nod?

By the summer of 1995, Obama, 34, had completed his globe-trotting education and settled deep into Chicago's South Side.

He had gone to Harvard Law School with private ambitions of someday following Harold Washington as mayor of Chicago. At Harvard, where Obama was celebrated as the first black president of the Law Review, classmate Gina Torielli remembers him "saying that governor of Illinois would be his dream job."

Back in Chicago after graduation, Obama won respect for running Project Vote, which registered tens of thousands of black Chicagoans. "It's a power thing," the volunteers' T-shirts said.

Community organizers packed his wedding to Michelle Robinson, a South Shore resident and fellow Harvard Law graduate. The newlyweds bought a Hyde Park condo.

His memoir, "Dreams from My Father," was published that summer to warm reviews. He was working at a small but influential legal firm, teaching constitutional law as a University of Chicago adjunct professor and sitting on the boards of charities.

At the same time, the South Side's political map was thrown up for grabs when then-U.S. Rep. Mel Reynolds was convicted of sex crimes and a special election was called to fill his congressional seat.

Palmer joined the race and, according to multiple accounts, introduced Obama as the successor for her Illinois Senate seat.

"She said, 'I found this wonderful person, this fine young man, so we needn't worry that we'd have a good state senator,' " said former 5th Ward Democratic committeeman Alan Dobry, who volunteered to help both Palmer and Obama that year.

In recent interviews, Obama and Palmer agreed that he asked her whether she wanted to keep her options open and file to run for her state Senate seat as a fallback in case her congressional bid failed.

Obama says he told her: "We haven't started the campaign yet."

"I hadn't publicly announced," he said. "But what I said was that once I announce, and I have started to raise money, and gather supporters, hire staff and opened up an office, signed a lease, then it's going to be very difficult for me to step down. And she gave me repeated assurances that she was in [the congressional race] to stay."

Obama "did say that to me," Palmer says now. "And I certainly did say that I wasn't going to run. There's no question about that."

But beyond that, the private discussions they held in 1995 are shrouded today in disputed and hazy memories.

Obama said Palmer gave him her formal endorsement. "I'm absolutely certain she … publicly spoke and sort of designated me," he recalled.

Palmer disputes that. "I don't know that I like the word 'endorsement,' " she said. "An endorsement to me, having been in legislative politics … that's a very formal kind of thing. I don't think that describes this. An 'informal nod' is how to characterize it."

In July 1995, Obama announced he was planning to run for Palmer's seat. He filed papers creating his fundraising committee a month later and officially announced his candidacy in September.

He emerged that winter as a gifted campaigner who after finishing hectic workdays would layer on thermal underwear to knock on South Side doors.

In impromptu street-corner conversations and media interviews, he disparaged local pols for putting self-preservation ahead of public service. At the last house on a dark block, "he would start a discussion that should have taken five minutes and pretty soon someone was cooking him dinner," said paid campaign consultant Carol Anne Harwell.

Then Palmer's congressional bid collapsed. On Nov. 28, 1995, she placed a distant third behind political powerhouses Jesse Jackson Jr., who holds that congressional seat today, and current state Senate President Emil Jones Jr.

Palmer didn't fade quietly away. Citing an "outpouring" of support, she upended the political landscape by switching gears and deciding to run in the March 1996 primary for her state Senate seat.

But she had two big problems. To get on the ballot, Palmer needed to file nominating petitions signed by at least 757 district voters—and the Dec. 18 deadline was just days away.

And then there was Obama, the bright up-and-comer she had all but anointed.

Obama's aides said he seemed anguished over the prospect of defying Palmer. "I really saw turmoil in his face," Harwell said.

Obama sought advice from political veterans such as 4th Ward Ald. Toni Preckwinkle and then-15th Ward Ald. Virgil Jones, who say they urged him to hold his course.

"I thought the world of Alice Palmer," said state Rep. Barbara Flynn Currie (D-Chicago), now the House majority leader. But "at that point she had pulled her own plug."

According to Palmer, it was without her knowledge that her supporters initiated discussions to persuade Obama to step aside. They invited him to the home of state Rep. Lovana "Lou" Jones, now deceased. Obama arrived alone.

"It was a brief meeting," said Black, a Palmer friend who had advised Obama when he was a young community organizer in the mid-1980s.

Obama didn't try to justify his decision to reject Palmer's plea, Black said.

"He did not put it in inflammatory terms, he just did not back away. It was not arguments, it was stubbornness," Black said. "Barack had by then gone ahead in putting together his own campaign, and he just didn't want to stop."

'If you can get 'em, get 'em'

Just in time for the Dec. 18, 1995, filing deadline, Palmer submitted 1,580 signatures—about twice the minimum required. That day, Obama lashed out at her, telling the Tribune she had pressured him to withdraw.

"I am disappointed that she's decided to go back on her word to me," he said.

Obama campaign aides also responded that day—but quietly, and out of the limelight.

Davis and Dobry marshaled volunteers and began poring through the nominating petitions of Palmer and the three lesser-known Democrats, according to interviews.

"We looked at those petitions and found that none of them met the requirements of the law," Dobry said. "Alice's people, they'd done it in a great hurry. Almost all her petitions were signed a day or so before the deadline."

According to Davis, Palmer "had kids gathering the names. I remember two of her circulators, Pookie and Squirt."

Davis and others urged Obama to file legal challenges.

Such tactics are legal and frequently used in Chicago. Ballot challenges eliminated 67 of the 245 declared aldermanic candidates in Chicago before this past February's elections, an election board spokesman said.

Davis recalled telling Obama: "If you can get 'em, get 'em. Why give 'em a break?

"I said, 'Barack, I'm going to knock them all off.'

"He said, 'What do you need?'

"I said, 'I need an attorney.'

"He said, 'Who is the best?'

"I said, 'Tom Johnson.' "

Obama already knew civil rights attorney and fellow Harvard Law graduate Thomas Johnson, who had waged election cases for the late Mayor Washington and had offered Obama informal legal advice since the days of Project Vote.

With Johnson's legal help, Obama's team was confident. They piled binders of polling sheets in the election board office on the second floor of City Hall, and on Jan. 2, 1996, began the days-long hearings that would eliminate the other Democrats.

Little-known candidate Marc Ewell filed 1,286 names, but Obama's objections left him 86 short of the minimum, and election officials struck him from the ballot, records show. Ewell filed a federal lawsuit contesting the board's decision, but Johnson intervened on Obama's behalf and prevailed when Ewell's case was dismissed days later.

Ewell could not be reached for comment, but the federal judge's decision showed how he was tripped up by complexities in the election procedures.

City authorities had just completed a massive, routine purge of unqualified names that eliminated 15,871 people from the 13th District rolls, court records show.

Ewell and other Obama rivals had relied on early 1995 polling sheets to verify the signatures of registered voters—but Obama's challenges were decided at least in part using the most recent, accurate list, records show.

Askia filed 1,899 signatures, but the Obama team sustained objections to 1,211, leaving him 69 short, records show.

Leafing through scrapbooks in his South Shore apartment, Askia, a perennially unsuccessful candidate, acknowledges that he paid Democratic Party precinct workers $5 a sheet for some of the petitions, and now suspects they used a classic Chicago ruse of passing the papers among themselves to forge the signatures. "They round-tabled me," Askia said.

Palmer to this day does not concede the flaws that Obama's team found in her signatures. She maintains that she could have overcome the Obama team's objections and stayed on the ballot if she had more time and resources.

It was wrenching to withdraw, she said. "But sit for a moment, catch your breath, get up and keep going. I'm a very practical person. Politics is not the only vehicle for accomplishing things." She became a special assistant to the president of the University of Illinois and is now retired.

Obama said he has not been in touch with Palmer since 1996. "No, not really, no," he said.

Though she hasn't determined whom to support in the presidential race, Palmer, 67, said her dispute with Obama doesn't affect her assessment of his fitness to hold office.

Saying that jobless high school dropouts "are sitting on the steps next to my house," Palmer added: "There is a savage economy going on out here, and we've got collateral damage. I am looking closely to see who has the courage, the smarts."
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:23 PM   #581
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and it is also accurate to say that Palin has a tangible record of abusing her political power for personal gain.

so, in the Cheney mold, i suppose this is a positive?

in the Cheney mold, really ?


explain the personal gain
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:30 PM   #582
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in the Cheney mold, really ?


explain the personal gain


she tried to get a trooper fired for a personal family reason.

let's not forget, we have a president who started a war because someone tried to kill his dad.

elected office is for the settlement of personal grievances?
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:31 PM   #583
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Who is the real reformer?

Which V P candidate is the real reformer?

Which candidate only talks about change?
I don´t know.

You think Obama only talks about change? Hmmm I don´t know. You have better insight because I just hear foreign news and his speeches show he has a vision. A good vision imho. But what has he done in Senate? In compare to McCain or the VP candidates? Can you tell me!

I admit I´m getting interested in American elections as the race is coming to an end.
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:44 PM   #584
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she tried to get a trooper fired for a personal family reason.

let's not forget, we have a president who started a war because someone tried to kill his dad.

elected office is for the settlement of personal grievances?
I am aware of the scandal


but not the facts.

She wanted her ex-brother-in -law to lose his job in law enforcement. Her sister was tied up in a messy divorce.
( Could she pick up some PUMAs, here )

I do know that law enforcement can not be fired with out cause. I have friends that serve on Civil Service Board.

We could not even fire a cop that was in a bar drinking on the clock.


I just don't see this as being Cheney like. Cheney won't even recognize his own daughter and her partner.

And when you say personal gain, that leads one to believe she tried to enrich herself with money or something.


no doubt this incident will see more light I don't expect it to rise to anything more serious than a sister looking out for her little sister.

Will it be less acceptable to most people than living in a mansion partially paid for by a convicted felon
while your brother lives in a shack on a dollar a day.
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Old 08-31-2008, 04:00 PM   #585
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Quote:
Despite VP nomination, Palin investigation continues
By Corey Allen-Young, CBS 11 News Reporter
Article Last Updated: 08/30/2008 07:25:29 PM AKDT


Governor Palin has made a big splash onto the national stage, however her state investigation here in Alaska continues.
Back in late July the legislative council approved $100,000 to investigate Governor Palin's potential abuse of power. Since, special investigator Steve Branchflower has been working methodically to bring to light the facts of a case that have only recently surfaced.

"The status of the investigation is that Steve Branchflower is taking statements right now from former members of the administration, and scheduling other appointments with other members of the administration, up to, and including Governor Palin to find out the facts of what happened," said Senator Hollis French, who is in charge of the legislative

investigation of Palin.
Branchflower is looking into the events that led up to the firing of former public safety commissioner Walt Monegan. It is alleged that Monegan may have been fired for refusing to fire Alaska State Trooper Michael Wooten, who went through a messy divorce with Palin's sister and is currently in the midst of a custody battle.

Regardless of Palin's status as the vice presidential nominee, many are calling for the investigation's continuance, "There is too much information to just erase it as a mistake," said Senator Lyda Green, a Republican from Wasilla, "It needs to be followed through very diligently, very carefully."

"The fact is the investigation will continue to go on regardless of governor Palin's position as the vice presidential nominee," said Andrew Halcro, who ran against Palin for governor in 2006.

Even though Governor Palin is now the vice president nominee, some have questioned her nomination whilst under a cloud of suspicion.

"I don't know how they would do that given the fact that Branchflower just began his investigation and there is a lot out there that is unknown," said Halcro.

"We certainly don't want to see anything like this on the national level if it is found there is abuse of powers on the state level," said Green.

i wonder how this is going to come into play with the future debates..
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