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Old 08-31-2008, 02:56 AM   #556
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Deep, did you support McCain in 2000, like I did?

And if so, are you as disgusted with his 'turn' as I am?
In 2000 I hoped he would blow apart the extreme GOP and re-invent it.

I am too pragmatic to be that disgusted.




that is why I have tried not to hammer too much on Obama for his modifications/ refinements?

Obama called McCains, and Hills gas tax holiday fraudulent
and now he is proposing the same thing but more so
and him wanting and approving full seating and voting privileges for Michigan and Florida, after saying no, no, no


anyways, I digress

I do believe if McCain wins
it will be a game-changer for the GOP
moderates will rise, and the hard core conservatives will fade.


If Obama wins, we will have a similar situation as a young idealistic Clinton elected (1992) with Dems controlling congress and a similar right wing back lash in 2010.

odd as it sounds, Obama is better for the hard core conservatives
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:58 AM   #557
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McCain is a strong enough force on his own

he is the happy warrior, the lone wolf
he has even said, if he was elected, he would go to congress once a week
and take questions from the well
much like the Brittish P M.
.
yeah, you know, I am unsure how much I beleive in McCain as the lone wolf tough guy, straight talker anymore. As much as I just think he's playing the part of the a-typical Rep Nominee to get elected, he made me a fan of his with his principle. I never agreed with some of his stances but I admire principle highly.

Can you still call someone principled who becomes a monster to get elected?
It's an interesting dilemma for me. I 'get' what he's doing and I am not sure he is as appealing because of this.

I never admired the Clintons (either of them) for principle, I admired them for effectiveness. So it's a dilemma for me to balance sticking up for consistency and principle and 'getting the job done'.

You know what I mean? What good is that idealism and principle if it's not being ushered into action? How can I support Hillary Clinton because I think she can win, because I believe she can affectuate policy change and then have distaste for McCain for doing the same thing?

I guess you could argue that Slick Willie never claimed to be a 'straight talker' and Hillary never claimed to be a highly principled politician. They were intellectually honest in their apparent 'sleaze'. So maybe that's something else I sort of admire about it. It's rather transparent.

It's just with so few heroes of principle, those really wanting to do what's right, to see McCain become a monster in an election, he'll likely lose anyways, wow. It's disappointing to say the least.

No wonder people sit at home in droves on election day.
Who's left to believe in?
Maybe Obama, as naive as the whole idea seems, can actually change something if only by virtue of getting elected for not being a complete loathesome character.
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:08 AM   #558
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yeah, you know, I am unsure how much I beleive in McCain as the lone wolf tough guy, straight talker anymore. As much as I just think he's playing the part of the a-typical Rep Nominee to get elected, he made me a fan of his with his principle. I never agreed with some of his stances but I admire principle highly.

Can you still call someone principled who becomes a monster to get elected?
It's an interesting dilemma for me. I 'get' what he's doing and I am not sure he is as appealing because of this.

I never admired the Clintons (either of them) for principle, I admired them for effectiveness. So it's a dilemma for me to balance sticking up for consistency and principle and 'getting the job done'.

You know what I mean? What good is that idealism and principle if it's not being ushered into action? How can I support Hillary Clinton because I think she can win, because I believe she can affectuate policy change and then have distaste for McCain for doing the same thing?

I guess you could argue that Slick Willie never claimed to be a 'straight talker' and Hillary never claimed to be a highly principled politician. They were intellectually honest in their apparent 'sleaze'. So maybe that's something else I sort of admire about it. It's rather transparent.

It's just with so few heroes of principle, those really wanting to do what's right, to see McCain become a monster in an election, he'll likely lose anyways, wow. It's disappointing to say the least.

No wonder people sit at home in droves on election day.
Who's left to believe in?
Maybe Obama, as naive as the whole idea seems, can actually change something if only by virtue of getting elected for not being a complete loathesome character.

I would not go so far to call McCain a monster.

And I don't think a truly 'principled' candidate can win.

And politics is an ugly business where one can not really stand on principle and be truly effective.

Bill Clinton, in my opinion was an excellent President, he did the best he could to get things accomplished for the American people. He was effective.

Carter and Bush 2, may have stayed more true to their principles.
Carter was not very effective,
and Bush, if he was more flexible on his principles he would not have been wrong all of the time.
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:22 AM   #559
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I would not go so far to call McCain a monster.

And I don't think a truly 'principled' candidate can win.

And politics is an ugly business where one can not really stand on pricipal and be truely effective.

Bill Clinton, in my opinion was an excellent President, he did the best he could to get things accomplished for the American people.

Carter and Bush 2, may have stayed more true to their principles.

So what.
A monster meaning: a typical political animal. I don't think he is a scumbag. I actually think he would be a good president, so I am not completely torn about the election like most. I just find it interesting that most of what he built his 'rep' on, is crumbling daily. Just disappointed in him, that's all.

I'm speaking largely from your same cynical view, only trying to see some kind of optimism. I am not yet 100% jaded, maybe only 95%.
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Old 08-31-2008, 05:25 AM   #560
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that Palin woman is kinda hot.....
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Old 08-31-2008, 09:45 AM   #561
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This might not be the best way to reach out to those disillusioned Hillary Clinton supporters.

In just her second appearance on the campaign trail with John McCain, newly-minted GOP running mate Sarah Palin was showered with boos on Saturday for attempting to praise Clinton’s trail-blazing bid to become the first female president.
Sorry PUMAs.
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:05 AM   #562
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I have a pair of shoes like that



win votes ?
or
lose votes ?
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Old 08-31-2008, 12:50 PM   #563
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wtf is a '12 and/or '16 ?

2012, 2016.







Quote:
I prefer the President to be competent and not need a co-President like Bush-Cheney.

does this pick not manifestly demonstrate McCain's incompetence? his inability to actually not be a maverick -- that she's little more than moose meat for the rabid anti-choice base? that this is as sell-out-y as if he had picked Romney?

she's pulled in over $7m in donations since she was announced. guess where all that money came from? the same forces that turned out in Ohio to punish gay people, precisely the same people who were unenthusiastic about McCain.

the true "maverick" pick, the true pick that would have affirmed what you (and, to be honest, even i) would like to believe about McCain, in that he does put the country first, that he does go with what is right rather than what is expedient, would have been to pick Lieberman or Ridge.

but they're pro-choice. and the base told McCain that there would have been a riot in Minneapolis were Lieberman the nominee.

there are other female Republicans. Sen. Snow, Sen. Hutchinson, Gov. Jody Rell. but guess what disqualifies all of them?

they support a woman's right to choose.
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Old 08-31-2008, 12:51 PM   #564
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Sorry PUMAs.

I know all those disillisioned Clinton voters were thinking they might vote for McCain if he would just pick Mitt Romney.
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Old 08-31-2008, 12:52 PM   #565
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win votes ?
or
lose votes ?


i'm sure the Pope thinks they're fabulous.
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Old 08-31-2008, 01:00 PM   #566
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Or is it that they are a larger bloc than voting indicates, but with a completely disorganized ground game?

The thing is the Paul supporters were/are as rabid and organized on the Internet as the Obama people. They were able to compete financially with Obama who is the best fundraiser out there and they certainly outcompeted McCain & Co.

Interestingly this did not convert into votes. The question that Paulites have to ask themselves is what did the Obama campaign do right to be able to mobilize the young voters on the campuses of Iowa that the Paulites failed to do in basically every state. If anything, they could learn a lot here.
I agree with your analysis. I think that the Paul campaignwas too focussed on the internet.
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Old 08-31-2008, 01:11 PM   #567
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higher than they were for JFK.



and this totally, totally misses the point. the absolute first requirement of a VP is that they should be, in their judgment, ready to assume the Presidency.

so this kind of undercuts the anti-Obama Biden ads the McCain people trotted out immediately after the Biden pick where he said that he didn't think Obama was "yet" ready to be president.

again, this is a media stunt. a super-cynical media stunt.
A lot of people view McCain's experience as a huge plus, but that does not mean they think Obama is not qualified to be President. Its also absurd for Obama supporters to charge that Sarah Palin is not qualifed to be President given the level of experience Obama had when he declared he was going to run for President in January 2007, just two years after becoming a US Senator.
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Old 08-31-2008, 01:36 PM   #568
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I keep saying Obama will win.

but these polls could make one take pause



2004

USATODAY.com



2008

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109903/Ga...ds-Points.aspx
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:00 PM   #569
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A lot of people view McCain's experience as a huge plus, but that does not mean they think Obama is not qualified to be President. Its also absurd for Obama supporters to charge that Sarah Palin is not qualifed to be President given the level of experience Obama had when he declared he was going to run for President in January 2007, just two years after becoming a US Senator.


it's absurd for Republicans to charge Obama with inexperience when Palin is manifestly less experienced than Obama.

and for someone so obsessed with foreign policy, it's strange to have a VP who has no actual record of ever saying anything at all about foreign policy.

so as McCain has show us, experience doesn't matter at all. he's said, "you know all my years in Washington? you know all the foreign leaders i've met with? you know all the secret briefings i've attended? you see, folks, none of that matters. not even a bit. what matters is that you're authentic and spunky and you help me with the political math and enable me to win a news cycle and keep the pundits talking for days about how mistifying my pick was and at the same time, i've stroked the Know-Nothing creationist base of the Republican party who would have bitten my head off had i gone with people who actually are qualified, like Lieberman or Ridge. the only thing that matters in this race is personal story -- did i mention i was a POW? -- and being anti-choice. you know all my achievements that i've been talking about since 2006? they don't matter! i'm a POW, and Palin is a PTA mom. we're in it to win it!"
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:14 PM   #570
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it's absurd for Republicans to charge Obama with inexperience when Palin is manifestly less experienced than Obama.

and for someone so obsessed with foreign policy, it's strange to have a VP who has no actual record of ever saying anything at all about foreign policy.
She has been to Kuwait.

and that is more than could be said of Obama.
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