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Old 10-07-2003, 05:55 PM   #46
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Sting,

I feel that your arguement ignores the context of colonization, for one, and of a more subtle sort of "economic colonization" that takes place through odious loans, debt restructuring, structural adjustments programs that force developing nations to liberalize and privatize, which leads to greater poverty in those specific cases, and trade laws which shut them out of the market.

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Old 10-07-2003, 06:03 PM   #47
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You know, our opinions still differ.

"Its not right for me as an individual to attack U2 simply because their next album will increase the difference between my total wealth and their total wealth!"

I just don´t get your point. Are we talking about attacking U2 for wealth? And what does that have to do with the above discussion?

"Record companies typically keep artist that make them a profit, even if they sell less comparitively to other artist."

Do they.
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Old 10-07-2003, 06:24 PM   #48
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HIPHOP,

"I just don´t get your point. Are we talking about attacking U2 for wealth? And what does that have to do with the above discussion?"

Its very simple. In my U2 analogy, U2 is comparitvely the first world, and I'm the third world. My total wealth will increase next year, but not nearly to the extent that Bono's wealth will increase next year. Using the same statistical arguement made with the 1st World VS. 3rd World and the growing difference between the two, you could say the exact samething about me an Bono. Is it Bono's fault that the difference in wealth between me and him increased? Does it mean that I'm getting poorer? Does it recognize the improvements in total wealth that I will make relative to where I was before? Ultimately, is it really accurate to compare the difference between my economic condition and Bono's in order to determine whether I am improving or not?

Record Companies cut artist that do not return a profit. They typically keep artist that make them money regardless of whether they sold less than artist x or y on Record Label B. Can you name any artist dropped for going double platinum and returning a nice profit for the record company?
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Old 10-07-2003, 07:29 PM   #49
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Sting, you didn´t reply to SherryDarling.

Ladies first.

p.s. are you drunk?
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Old 10-07-2003, 07:57 PM   #50
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Sherry Darling,

Developing Countries should liberalize and privatize because this is the path to economic growth. Ireland did not become the 3rd richest country on the planet from being the poorest by having huge trade tarrifs and massive Government involvement in the economy. I'm against trade laws that shut developing countries out of any market.

I don't ingore what you said, but simply disagree that these things you list are the cause of poverty in the third world.
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Old 10-07-2003, 08:21 PM   #51
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I think your argument still ignores the context of colonization, to say it in Sherry Darling´s words.

(she´s so much more fluent then me)

Shannon is an interesting example for tax/tradefree zones, btw. To compare the economic rise of Ireland to any third-world country is inaccurate because of huge differences in history, demographics, climate, society,... etc. do I have to list ten more...

Ireland is not that stable politically, is it? Ireland is the 3rd rich, if there´s riots on the streets, IRA etc.- how does that match your theory that third world countries stay poor because of political instability. Italy´s even further away from being politically stable. How come the region of North Italy is one of the richest regions in Europe?
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Old 10-07-2003, 10:13 PM   #52
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whenhiphopdrovethebigcars,

Colonization is a mixed bag because there both good and bad effects, but the passage of time has deluted its impact on conditions today.

The Ireland of 1845 that my Great Great Grand Parents left has plenty to do with the poorest of third world countries today. In 1845, Ireland was one of the poorest countries on the planet, probably the poorest per captia in the world. Ireland was the most densely populated country in Europe and was very poor and reliant on a single crop, the potato, for survival. The famine that followed when the crop died was massive. Nearly 1/4 of the population died in places like County Cork from starvation and disease. The Ireland of the 1840s was as poor as any country in the Third World today in terms of standard of living.

The differences you claim the Ireland of the 1840s has as far as history, demographics, climate and society are not there to a degree that would make it relevantly different from Third World Countries today.

The Republic of Ireland is the third richest country in the world. There are no riots on the streets. It has been politically stable since the 1920s.

Northern Ireland is not apart of the Republic of Ireland. It is apart of the United Kingdom.

"Italy´s even further away from being politically stable. How come the region of North Italy is one of the richest regions in Europe?"

I would not call Italy politically unstable. Having a different government every year can make things difficult, but things still get done and the country is secure from foreign invasion.

My example of being "politically unstable" would be Bosnia from 1992-1995. This type of poltically instability is very common in Africa.
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Old 10-08-2003, 10:58 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Sherry Darling,

Developing Countries should liberalize and privatize because this is the path to economic growth. Ireland did not become the 3rd richest country on the planet from being the poorest by having huge trade tarrifs and massive Government involvement in the economy. I'm against trade laws that shut developing countries out of any market.

I don't ingore what you said, but simply disagree that these things you list are the cause of poverty in the third world.
Then was does liberalizing result in local subsistance farmers and other local businesses being forced from their homes? And unable to sell their good because they can no longer compete because we've flooded the market with cheap goods?

If you don't believe the *explicit* purpose of colonization was for our own economic gain, I honestly don't know what to say to that except perhaps to get a good history book on the Congo and study up. Rubber, diamonds, ivory, oil...we raped those places of their resources. That was entire purpose of going there!And then backed brutal leaders, helping to cause civil war! How can that not cause poverty?

Cheryl (who is glad to hear you've come around on the trade laws thing )
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Old 10-08-2003, 07:22 PM   #54
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Sherry Darling,

"Then was does liberalizing result in local subsistance farmers and other local businesses being forced from their homes? And unable to sell their good because they can no longer compete because we've flooded the market with cheap goods?"

It is the third world that can produce many goods cheaper than the first world. It is usually the local business in the first world that often comes up short if anyone does.

The purpose of colonization is not what I was discussing. The fact is that colonization has been over for a long time, depending on your definition of it and poverty today in the third world is the result of other factors.

Check out how Ireland went from being the poorest country on the planet in 1845 to the third richest in 2003. Exports from Ireland account for 90% of its GDP. Imports are at about 80% of its GDP. Free Trade, Free Trade, is the fuel for the Celtic Tiger.
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Old 10-09-2003, 02:02 AM   #55
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Quote:
Check out how Ireland went from being the poorest country on the planet in 1845 to the third richest in 2003. Exports from Ireland account for 90% of its GDP. Imports are at about 80% of its GDP. Free Trade, Free Trade, is the fuel for the Celtic Tiger.
Free trade plus an immense monetary package from the EU
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Old 10-09-2003, 02:29 AM   #56
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Klaus,

"Free trade plus an immense monetary package from the EU"

Have any statistics? Knowing the GDP in Ireland, I'd be interested to know the size of this monetary package in comparison to it.
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Old 10-09-2003, 06:02 AM   #57
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STING2:

Since i had to google for it i only found old data:

Quote:
Irland ist mit umgerechnet 38.5 Mrd. S (Stand 1997) nach Spanien und Griechenland der drittgrößte Nettoempfänger in der EU, wobei Irland umgerechnet auf das BIP mit 5.07 Prozent Subventionen Spitzenreiter der EU ist.
So Ireland get's most out of the EU pot after Spain and Greece. and it gets most in % of the GDP
in 1997 it got 5.07%of the GDP as Subventions from the EU which was 38.5 Mrd. S (S was the austrian money before the EUR and is approx. 2.800.000.000 EUR)

If you need more acurate data i'd have to look at the European statistics for the last year.

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Old 10-09-2003, 05:44 PM   #58
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Thats what I thought, 95% of Irelands GDP does not come from Subventions from the EU. The fuel for the Celtic Tiger has primarily been FREE TRADE!
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Old 10-09-2003, 07:08 PM   #59
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Sting,

I'm not feeling well, and am currently working 60 or so hours a week with my GRA and doctoral program, so this is the last that I'll have to say about this.

Read this article about what happened with the E. Asian Tigers
http://web.nps.navy.mil/~relooney/3041_141.htm

Ireland got rich because it could export, not because it was forced by "structural adjustment programs" to import (which is what impoverished nations now are forced to do.) You make money by selling stuff, not buying it. Remember that Ireland's debt was canceled, too.

If you're wondering what I mean when I say "economic colonization", consider the destructive policies of the IMF and World Bank. You can learn about them in a ton of places, if you choose to educate yourself about it. The best place to start, I think is a book by a former chief economist at the bank, Joe Stigletz (author of above article, too), called Globalization and Its Discontents.

Remember next that it is a myth that the currently rich nations got rich via free trade. Documents prove that we and Europe used tarrifs, trade barriers, gov't subsidies and other forms of protection to guide and strengthen infant industries and we also colonized much of the Global South to force them to give us access to their resources and markets (see Ha Joon Chang's Kicking Away the Ladder--that book has copies of the documents I'm talking about. Primary documents, mind you, not later analysis. ) Also remembe that, while you seem to consider colonization a neglible thing, it provoked civil wars that are still going on, wrecked environmental havoc and depleated nations of their resources. And this was NOT a long time ago. Some nations in Africa didn't get their independence until the 1980's!! That's yesterday, historically speaking.

Now I'm not arguing *against* free trade (genuinely free trade, anyway)--but a nation has to get to a certain point of development before they can play with the big boys. There's a reason the Little League doesn't play in the World Series. I also think we might be using those terms in two different ways. When you say "free trade" you probably mean, you know, free trade. LOL. But please understand that term, when the US gov't says it (and the EU--ya'll aren't off the hook ) is code for economic colonization thru "adjustment programs" that poor nations are told will create wealth but don't (not for the poor nation, anyway--they do for us). Read about what happened to Haiti as an example of it's "free trade" zone.

http://www.haitireborn.org/campaigns...manitarian-aid

Now, did we *create* or *invent* poverty? Clearly not. Corruption and mismanagement has played a part as well as the factors I've been talking about. But the fact is, our policies *deepen* and *perpetuate* poverty at a time in history when the world has enough wealth to make one hell of a dent in it.

And I agree with Bono wholeheartedly when he says that God will judge us for that.

Cheers,
Sherry
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Old 10-09-2003, 07:45 PM   #60
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Gello.

Rereading this (though I do stand by the facts I've presented), and mindful that I am sick and cranky right now, it occurs to me my tone may have sounded angry or too stiff. If so, I do apologize!

Cheers,
Sherry
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