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Old 04-13-2008, 06:39 PM   #76
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[q]What I see from that (besides the appalling lack of punctuation - who wrote that piece?) is a politician capitalizing on the mistake/weakness of another. Nothing particularly out of line, or shocking to me. It happens all the time, and I don't think it's necessarily evil. It's not like she's fabricated that he's had an out-of-wedlock, biracial child as a result of an affair, or anything.

The things Hillary are attributing to Obama - elitism, being out of touch with segments of the population, not being electable in the general election - I see Obama supporters saying the same about Hillary all the time. I do agree though, that as far as I know, Obama himself has not done this, but still. Pot, kettle much?[/q]


i'm sorry not to be thrilled by the replaying of the tired, Baby Boom political playbook. she's trying to revive the tired old red/blue divides and exacerbating them at the same time. she is saying, "you see those people? they think you're stupid. i know i spend my life with those people, but trust me, i'm just like you." all it does is drag us all down, and we get subsumed back into the same political morass we've been in ever since i've been old enough to be aware of politics.

you're right, it does fall short of the nastiness of the GOP primaries in South Carolina, but i fail to see how that's much better -- reminds me of another thread in here. no one is saying that she can't do what she's doing, but what she's doing is, to me and many others, is not just gross, but has the potential to come back and make her look incredibly silly.

yes, she's capitalizing on a mistake. for the third day. but she's going beyond what most primary campaigns ever do, possibly because i can't remember a campaign that has gone on this long, but this seems like yet another reminder on her part that Obama is damaged goods and, no, she can't win the nomination, but he can't win in the general, and better a McCain victory so she can be back in 2012 than an Obama victory in 2008.

what this underscores is how the Clintons seem to be only about themselves and their own personal ambitions. nothing about the party, nothing about the country, it's about putting power back into their own hands. all things exist to be manipulated by them to their own ends. i don't see Obama being any sort of pot and kettle to this style of politics. and perhaps it's to his detriment, and if so, that's a commentary on all of us.

now, the "ends" the Clintons seek are ones that i tend to agree with, for the most part. as has been noted, Obama and HRC aren't much different from a political standpoint than one another. but doesn't anyone else have a problem with this? isn't anyone worried about dynasties? isn't anyone else worried that her campaign has been so poorly run that it speaks ill of her future candidacy?

what's been awful and depressing is that this campaign, when it started, was the most inspiring one i've been around for. it was about ideas, it was very positive, and it's been dragged into the mud by the Clinton campaign. yes, obviously the Obama campaign has dirt under it's fingernails as well. yes, it's obviously playing politics as well. but the venom with which she's going after him, the personal nature of the attacks, the personality politics ... none of this is designed to get her to win. it's designed to damage him enough so that he loses in the fall.

and that's why i've turned on the Clintons. yes, i'd vote for her. i have to. no, i will never forgive them for what they've done to the brightest democratic start to emerge since ...
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:13 PM   #77
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I understand and respect your point of view, and I admit that while I do believe in what I'm saying, to a certain extent I might somewhat be taking a devil's advocate stance here.

Quote:

i'm sorry not to be thrilled by the replaying of the tired, Baby Boom political playbook. she's trying to revive the tired old red/blue divides and exacerbating them at the same time. she is saying, "you see those people? they think you're stupid. i know i spend my life with those people, but trust me, i'm just like you." all it does is drag us all down, and we get subsumed back into the same political morass we've been in ever since i've been old enough to be aware of politics.

you're right, it does fall short of the nastiness of the GOP primaries in South Carolina, but i fail to see how that's much better -- reminds me of another thread in here. no one is saying that she can't do what she's doing, but what she's doing is, to me and many others, is not just gross, but has the potential to come back and make her look incredibly silly.
The way I see it is, Hillary is running the usual type of campaign, it's politics as usual with her. I think it's Obama's uniqueness in his lack of negativity that's making hers stand out so much. Here's a thought, and it's pure speculation on my part, but is it possible that part of the reason Obama is able to stay so unnegative is because, as I pointed out before, his supporters are doing the anti-Hillary work for him, so he's able to stay above the fray and remain relatively blameless?
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yes, she's capitalizing on a mistake. for the third day. but she's going beyond what most primary campaigns ever do, possibly because i can't remember a campaign that has gone on this long, but this seems like yet another reminder on her part that Obama is damaged goods and, no, she can't win the nomination, but he can't win in the general, and better a McCain victory so she can be back in 2012 than an Obama victory in 2008.

what this underscores is how the Clintons seem to be only about themselves and their own personal ambitions. nothing about the party, nothing about the country, it's about putting power back into their own hands. all things exist to be manipulated by them to their own ends. i don't see Obama being any sort of pot and kettle to this style of politics. and perhaps it's to his detriment, and if so, that's a commentary on all of us.
Here, I see you attributing a lot of nefarious motivations to Hillary's campaign, and the Clinton family. Here's a thought - maybe it's not that she doesn't care about the party, or the nation, but that she genuinely thinks that she's the best candidate, and she's giving it her all to win. Is that so difficult to believe? Why is it selfish only for her to stay in the race? Why doesn't Obama drop out for the good of the party/nation? Why is no one asking that? Does Obama have no personal ambitions, he's running purely out of altruism?

Also (and this is not necessarily a reaction to only your comments, I think of this whenever someone brings this up), the 'putting an end to political dynasties' argument doesn't wash with me. It's not the fault of the Clintons that Bush Jr won 8 years after daddy, and royally fucked your country, and it doesn't necessarily follow that Hillary winning the presidency would have the same result.

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now, the "ends" the Clintons seek are ones that i tend to agree with, for the most part. as has been noted, Obama and HRC aren't much different from a political standpoint than one another. but doesn't anyone else have a problem with this? isn't anyone worried about dynasties? isn't anyone else worried that her campaign has been so poorly run that it speaks ill of her future candidacy?

what's been awful and depressing is that this campaign, when it started, was the most inspiring one i've been around for. it was about ideas, it was very positive, and it's been dragged into the mud by the Clinton campaign. yes, obviously the Obama campaign has dirt under it's fingernails as well. yes, it's obviously playing politics as well. but the venom with which she's going after him, the personal nature of the attacks, the personality politics ... none of this is designed to get her to win. it's designed to damage him enough so that he loses in the fall.

and that's why i've turned on the Clintons. yes, i'd vote for her. i have to. no, i will never forgive them for what they've done to the brightest democratic start to emerge since ...
Sadly, it's been shown time and time again that negative campaigning works. Unfortunately, it seems to appeal to the lowest common denominator - the uninformed who like to have sound bytes spoon-fed to them, and fail to seek out their own information. I don't like it either, but it seems to be reality. Perhaps an Obama win would usher in a new era of kinder, gentler (heh, see what I did there?) politics, proving one doesn't have to go negative to win.
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:55 PM   #78
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Democratic voters in the United States Of America will get what they deserve for helping to keep Hillary in the race when she should of been thrown out along time ago...his name is John McCain. Remember all you Billary Democrats - you did this to yourselves and your country. You fools.
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:05 PM   #79
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Agreed - From a way outsiders perspective, watching and reading without a built-in bias either way on the Democrat side, it seems pretty freakin' obvious that the Republican side really, really, REALLY want Hillary to be the nominee and for one very good reason only.

I've sort of checked out of the US race for a few weeks, but went on a bit of an Obama reading binge over the weekend - very impressive guy.
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Old 04-13-2008, 08:17 PM   #80
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Hillary Clinton said:

"I think what’s important about this is that Senator Obama has not owned up to what he said, and taken accountability for it"
I saw this on the news when I was at the gym today, and almost laughed out loud, and I think I did say "oh, come on!" rather audibly.

Clinton, criticizing Obama for not owning up to and taking accountability for his words? I wonder if she'd be satisfied if his response to this was:

"I misspoke."

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Old 04-13-2008, 08:21 PM   #81
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Originally posted by Irvine511
the narrative about the campaign is now about how Obama isn't going to win. so vote for Hillary. because Obama can't win. that doesn't strike me as a compelling reason to vote for anyone, and it's quite depressing to see
But this is precisely the argument most of the Obama supporters in here have been making all along--that Hillary is unelectable, that she unites disaffected conservatives like no one else, that too many people in her own party look at her and are just reminded of Monica Lewinsky, etc. etc. Yes, there are also arguments to be made based on how both candidates have run their campaigns, but "not electable" seems to be nearly everyone's trump card.
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What fears do you think we Clinton supporters are embracing? The supporters you cyber-know.
the fear that America won't vote for a black man. that he's too risky. too unknown. and you know us. so vote for the known quantity. don't dream. don't strive to be better.
I get the feeling you're really talking about one person. But cynic's crusade + 'irritable' counter-crusade tends to create a dynamic in here that I think has caused several more moderate posters on both sides to throw up their hands and avoid these threads altogether, which is unfortunate. Your description certainly doesn't sound like most of the Clinton supporters I know in 'real' life.
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:27 PM   #82
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Obama Turns Table on Clinton

By BETH FOUHY
Associated Press, April 13


STEELTON, Penn. — Democrat Barack Obama lashed out Sunday at rival Hillary Rodham Clinton, mocking her sudden vocal support for gun rights and saying he understands the concerns of working class people. "She knows better. Shame on her. Shame on her," Obama told an audience at a union hall here.

The Illinois senator has spent two days on the defensive after comments he made at a San Francisco fundraiser suggesting working class people are bitter about their economic circumstances and "cling to guns and religion" as a result. Clinton has pounded him for the remarks, calling him "elitist and divisive."

After reiterating his regret for his choice of words, Obama turned the tables on Clinton—noting that she accepted campaign contributions from drug and insurance company lobbyists and mocking, among other things, her sudden fealty to the rights of gun owners. "She is running around talking about how this is an insult to sportsmen, how she values the Second Amendment. She's talking like she's Annie Oakley," Obama said, invoking the famed female sharpshooter immortalized in the musical Anne Get Your Gun. "Hillary Clinton is out there like she's on the duck blind every Sunday. She's packing a six-shooter. Come on, she knows better. That's some politics being played by Hillary Clinton."

Obama said the former first lady's history in the White House and Senate proved she was not as sensitive to the concerns of working class voters in Pennsylvania and elsewhere as she tried to suggest. Pennsylvania's primary is April 22. "I just have to remind people of the track record," Obama said. "This is the same person who took money from financial folks on Wall Street and then voted for bankruptcy bill that makes it harder for folks right here in Pennsylvania to get a fair shake. Who do you think is out of touch? This is the same person who spent a decade with her husband campaigning for NAFTA, and now goes around saying she's opposed to NAFTA," Obama said, referring to the North American Free Trade Agreement that is widely unpopular in blue collar communities.

The Clinton campaign issued a quick retort to Obama's comments. "For months, Barack Obama and his campaign have relentlessly attacked Hillary Clinton's character and integrity by using Republican talking points from the 1990s," said spokesman Phil Singer. "The shame is his. Senator Clinton does know better—she knows better than to condescend and talk down to voters like Senator Obama did."
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:41 PM   #83
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I'm so sick of this infighting!
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:42 PM   #84
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I'm so sick of this infighting!
And all the Dems in November will be : Wha'happen?
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:43 PM   #85
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And it's only April.
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:54 PM   #86
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Originally posted by VintagePunk

Why is it selfish only for her to stay in the race? Why doesn't Obama drop out for the good of the party/nation? Why is no one asking that? Does Obama have no personal ambitions, he's running purely out of altruism?


since it's late, i only have time to respond to this.

she has every right to run. of course. but the difference is that she cannot mathematically win, unless she can convince some sort of insurrection amongst the superdelegates. there is no path to the nomination for her beyond the total destruction of Obama.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:00 AM   #87
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Originally posted by yolland

But this is precisely the argument most of the Obama supporters in here have been making all along--that Hillary is unelectable, that she unites disaffected conservatives like no one else, that too many people in her own party look at her and are just reminded of Monica Lewinsky, etc. etc. Yes, there are also arguments to be made based on how both candidates have run their campaigns, but "not electable" seems to be nearly everyone's trump card.



i agree that's always been a part of the argument from the beginning, for both camps. but as we see now, this is Hillary's *only* argument against Obama.

why doesn't she talk about health care? she's actually got him on that one.


Quote:
I get the feeling you're really talking about one person. But cynic's crusade + 'irritable' counter-crusade tends to create a dynamic in here that I think has caused several more moderate posters on both sides to throw up their hands and avoid these threads altogether, which is unfortunate. Your description certainly doesn't sound like most of the Clinton supporters I know in 'real' life.


i understand the dynamic you're talking about, but the "American won't vote for a black guy" narrative has been around since the SC primary and the male Clinton's talk about this "kid" and that hey, Jessie Jackson also won SC.

and if this is how the Democrats are reacting to Hillary, think of the polarization when the Republicans get into the mix.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:14 AM   #88
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Originally posted by Harry Vest
Democratic voters in the United States Of America will get what they deserve for helping to keep Hillary in the race when she should of been thrown out along time ago...his name is John McCain. Remember all you Billary Democrats - you did this to yourselves and your country. You fools.


the only thing i'll say is that John McCain isn't *that* bad. he gave a very important foreign policy speech where he repudiated much of what's known as "cowboy diplomacy" and he certainly knows much more about the world than W. he's married to Iraq, and he knows it, but i don't actually believe that a McCain presidency would be a Bush Part 3, excepting Iraq.

back in 1999, i remember thinking that a Bush presidency would at best be a national embarrassment, and at worst apocalyptic. clearly, it's been apocalyptic.

i don't think McCain is in nearly the same category of ignorance and incompetency as Bush Jr.
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Old 04-14-2008, 08:03 AM   #89
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But I've noticed here and elsewhere that the Obama supporters are pretty thin-skinned for likely winners. Sorry, but you can't expect all of us to shut up and fall in line. It's not a divine coronation, it's a bunch of politicians applying for the same job

I have to agree with that, and no matter who your candidate is some objectivity is in order-and it's healthy too.

I'm sick of the infighting too. Say hello to President McCain and four more years of bullshit. Now THAT will be some bitterness. I might even get a gun
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Old 04-14-2008, 08:28 AM   #90
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I'm growing tired of the infighting between Clinton and Obama, it's getting out of hand. They are doing a great job of making the Democrats look like idiots and the future of this country cannot afford for that to happen!
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