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Old 04-13-2008, 02:47 PM   #61
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Originally posted by melon
We seem not to compete on ideas anymore; we compete on semantics.


the Clintons have made sure of this.

the entire process was absolutely STACKED -- by clintonista Terry McAuliffe, no less -- to give her the nomination by the beginning of February. and she couldn't even pull that off!

and then this uppity Negro kid comes along ...
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Old 04-13-2008, 03:57 PM   #62
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Irvine, thank you for your thoughtful response. I admit when I wrote my original response, I had to bite my tongue--several times. But I figured underneath our visceral responses, we both genuinely look for dialogue.

We have a local talk radio station here--three local hosts coincidentally embracing three different candidates. When I talked about thinskinned, I was also talking about the Obama supporters who would call almost en masse everytime a criticism was levelled, saying this host was supposed to be "fair and balanced". I don't recall too many Hillary supporters calling into the Obama host complaining. The Hillary host has actively invited Obama supporters to the show and called the larger Obama campaign offices and had John Kerry on, economists who support Obama, etc. Despite being hard on Obama, he has given the Obama supporters every opportunity to make their case--unlike the Obama host.

We've had Obama supporters tearing Hillary signs from her supporters during her rallies (and to be fair, they got a little payback at Obama's rally which I thought was equally tacky)

One gets a sense that no criticism levelled at Obama is reasonable, which frankly scares me a little bit. With the Hillary Bosnia sniper thing, we thought, yeah, she lied and she deserves the heat.

I've heard Clinton and Republican supporters call for apologies from Obama regarding Wright, etc. I never called for an apology. I never thought one was required or even particularly desireable.

I had a Hillary pin I gave away. But haven't gotten a Hillary sign. If I did, I would think it was funny.

It's hard for me to identify nationwide with a Vote for Hillary because Obama Can't Win, because as I've noted, a lot of people here were pro-Hillary even when everybody else was in the race.
So believe it or not, we do believe we are voting FOR someone.

I will admit for me it's partly a woman who shares a lot of my ideology thing. It's a lot of this always second thing. It's not like we've had an overabundance of women candidates. I've never really had an opportunity to vote for somebody who was, you know, like me. She's strong, capable, intelligent and like you said several times, you would vote for her if she were the nominee. Would you still?

Obama didn't wow me. I wasn't wowed by his speeches, although I often thought they were strong and eloquent. I don't have much real information on him. I like Hillary, warts and all, and after watching her closely for 16 years, I think the good outweighs the bad. I've vetted her. I haven't vetted Obama.
For me to vote for Obama would only be a vote against McCain.
I haven't been convinced he is a step away and a step above. I know that's what his image is. I don't necessarily trust image. I'm not a person of faith, except in my own instincts. (Not to say I'm not wrong --or right--often enough, but I'd rather bet on my instincts than against them.) So in the primaries, I'll vote for whom I prefer, then make my peace in November.

You know a couple of years ago, you castigated me some for my opinion (still held) that not voting is a political statement itself. I believe you said something along the lines that it was a moral imperative (or civil duty or something) to vote. Be careful what you wish for.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:08 PM   #63
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Originally posted by BonosSaint
I will admit for me it's partly a woman who shares a lot of my ideology thing. It's a lot of this always second thing. It's not like we've had an overabundance of women candidates. I've never really had an opportunity to vote for somebody who was, you know, like me. She's strong, capable, intelligent
Interestingly enough, I used to feel like you and feel exactly the opposite right now.

I loved the Clintons and I really liked Hillary. I always defended her for staying with Bill and thought it was obnoxious for people to pass judgments on other people's marriages. I never understood the right's attacks in this respect - for all their talk of the sanctity of marriage, they blasted her for preserving hers. Talk about demented. I also really liked her healthcare plan and felt she was intelligent, strong, educated, etc - all the things you mentioned.

It's 2008 and I'm turning 29 this year. I look at Hillary and see a lot of similarities - she's a strong, independent woman, she's a lawyer, she did a lot of community service type of work, she didn't let her husband define her. And yet, everything I have seen from her this election campaign has left me not only disgusted, but really, profoundly disappointed. That is the thing for me - anger is easy, but disappointment is hard. I don't like this woman that I see. I don't like a LOT of the things she's done, I don't like her sense of entitlement (this is not just directed at her, but her staff in general), I don't like her constant moving of the goalposts rather than recognizing that she ran a shitty, awful campaign (which is inexcusable given her $ and level of influence). When I see her now, I don't see a woman I necessarily respect. She is nothing like my Mom, who is of a similar age and hugely accomplished.

So I don't really sympathize with her anymore, nor do I feel a sense of kinship. I don't care if she is a woman. I never believed I would see a female US president in my lifetime, until Hillary came along. Now, I think, I'd love to see a woman, but not this woman.

I was not initially an Obama fan. I didn't have a dislike for him or anything like that, but I would have been equally as happy if Hillary or Obama were elected. In fact, I kind of liked a lot of Edwards' positions more than either of theirs. So this isn't some kind of inability of me to get past Obama fangirliness. The reason I am in the place where I am is squarely because of the way Hillary has conducted herself. And my position and my views are by no means unique, so you really have to ask yourself how has she contributed to this severe, deep splintering.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:10 PM   #64
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I would love to be 29 again.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:18 PM   #65
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Originally posted by yolland
Eh, I wouldn't call it a 'slam' as the intent was clearly empathetic, but reductionist dimestore social analysis like that is better left to pundits and private campaign strategy meetings; too much risk of sounding patronizing.
You're right yolland.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:26 PM   #66
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Obama admitted that the remarks were a mistake. The minute he makes a mistake, his opponents are all over him dammit! This pisses me off dammit!
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:31 PM   #67
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Originally posted by Jeannieco
^^oh ya, he's definitely done it now...

This nit-pciking attack is nothing more than desperation pure and simple. It's so funny to me... It never fails, he starts to gain ground in the polls and here comes the SLIME machine!!
I have 3 words for you..... BRING IT ON!!


Please look at his response....
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:35 PM   #68
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Originally posted by Bluer White
You have to remember that Obama's comments were made to wealthy Californian donors at a stop in $an Franci$co. These sort of views on religion, guns, trade, gay marriage, etc are par for the course.
Yeah.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:37 PM   #69
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Originally posted by indra
His comments certainly don't seem to be the best way to win over the rural vote. Kind of hard to believe he wouldn't know such comments would raise some hackles.


*edit* I want to clarify I don't think he necessarily meant to slam anyone. I don't think he intentionally planned to set up an "us" against "them" situation, but I do think he didn't really give what he said much thought. That he didn't seem to realise that people -- people he is supposedly courting -- might feel slighted by his comment is worrisome in someone who's strong points are supposed to include being thoughtful and knowing how to connect with people.

Overall I think these are "rookie" mistakes, but if he doesn't doesn't stop making them soon they could be what sinks him. They will be exploited -- he or his advisors have to realise that.
Yeah.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:39 PM   #70
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
The Rural Vote has won the last two elections!
True.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:43 PM   #71
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He needs to think harder about how he phrases everything because absolutely everything he says is under a microscope and will be used against him if at all possible.

Yeah.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:46 PM   #72
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Originally posted by yolland
Eh, I wouldn't call it a 'slam' as the intent was clearly empathetic, but reductionist dimestore social analysis like that is better left to pundits and private campaign strategy meetings; too much risk of sounding patronizing.
I thought the same thing. It sounds like his former community activist self coming out. And while there are probably elements of truth in his statement, I agree, it's vastly oversimplified and does sound patronizing.

Addressing some of the general sentiment in this thread, it seems as though Obama supporters are up in arms, minimizing what he's said. While I agree that his intent wasn't to be offensive, to some he obviously was, and he needs to find a way to do damage control. Plain and simple, verbal miscues and digging oneself out from them is part of politics. Even Obama's not immune.

I also find some of the attitudes of Obama supporters curious. If Hillary had made a similar misstep, she'd be lambasted for it. You know she would.

Disclosure - I'm not strongly on the side of either candidate, I've mostly been watching as an interested observer, although in recent weeks, I've probably been leaning very slightly on the side of Obama.
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Old 04-13-2008, 04:57 PM   #73
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Originally posted by anitram


Interestingly enough, I used to feel like you and feel exactly the opposite right now.

I loved the Clintons and I really liked Hillary. I always defended her for staying with Bill and thought it was obnoxious for people to pass judgments on other people's marriages. I never understood the right's attacks in this respect - for all their talk of the sanctity of marriage, they blasted her for preserving hers. Talk about demented. I also really liked her healthcare plan and felt she was intelligent, strong, educated, etc - all the things you mentioned.

It's 2008 and I'm turning 29 this year. I look at Hillary and see a lot of similarities - she's a strong, independent woman, she's a lawyer, she did a lot of community service type of work, she didn't let her husband define her. And yet, everything I have seen from her this election campaign has left me not only disgusted, but really, profoundly disappointed. That is the thing for me - anger is easy, but disappointment is hard. I don't like this woman that I see. I don't like a LOT of the things she's done, I don't like her sense of entitlement (this is not just directed at her, but her staff in general), I don't like her constant moving of the goalposts rather than recognizing that she ran a shitty, awful campaign (which is inexcusable given her $ and level of influence). When I see her now, I don't see a woman I necessarily respect. She is nothing like my Mom, who is of a similar age and hugely accomplished.

So I don't really sympathize with her anymore, nor do I feel a sense of kinship. I don't care if she is a woman. I never believed I would see a female US president in my lifetime, until Hillary came along. Now, I think, I'd love to see a woman, but not this woman.

I was not initially an Obama fan. I didn't have a dislike for him or anything like that, but I would have been equally as happy if Hillary or Obama were elected. In fact, I kind of liked a lot of Edwards' positions more than either of theirs. So this isn't some kind of inability of me to get past Obama fangirliness. The reason I am in the place where I am is squarely because of the way Hillary has conducted herself. And my position and my views are by no means unique, so you really have to ask yourself how has she contributed to this severe, deep splintering.

Very, very good post. I've felt essentially the same way.
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Old 04-13-2008, 05:48 PM   #74
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I also find some of the attitudes of Obama supporters curious. If Hillary had made a similar misstep, she'd be lambasted for it. You know she would.



yes, she'd get crap for it in the press, and the Obama campaign would do something about it.

but would they do this:

[q]Clinton Says Obama's 'Bitter' Remark Could Cost Party General Election
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April 13, 2008 3:12 PM

ABC News' Eloise Harper Reports: Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., took the opportunity to capitalize on her rivals comments that people in small towns are "bitter" for the third day in a row.

Speaking to reporters outside some homes in Scranton, Pennsylvannia where she has family roots and today was greeted by many supporters holding signs and offering encouragement. She made the argument that Sen. Barack Obama's comments could cost the party the election and that the party has been seen as out of touch by male candidates in the past. Clinton also criticized Obama for not "owning up to his remarks."

Clinton was asked if this moment was her opening in the race – the one that she has been looking for. Clinton responded saying,"I think what’s important about this is that Senator Obama has not owned up to what he said, and taken accountability for it you. You know, first said he was right and attacked me for raising his remarks and referencing them. Then he admitted he may have said what he said in artfully. And now he he’s deeply apologized if he offended anyone. But what people are looking for is an explanation."

Clinton also threatened that these comments could really hurt the Democratic Party – making a veiled comparison to what happened to John Kerry and Al Gore.

"The Democratic party has been unfortunately viewed by many people over the last decades as being elitist and out of touch we have waged elections over that you don’t have to think too far to remember that good men running for president were viewed as being elitist and out of touch with the values and the lives of millions of Americans. So I think this is a very significant concern that people have expressed. You know the front page of the paper today in Scranton is very pointed and the mayor and mayors across Pennsylvanian and people across our country have all reacted," she said.

Clinton repeated the argument she has been making these past days saying, "I do not believe, as Senator Obama apparently does, that Americans in small towns and small cities and rural areas cling to religion and gun ownership out of frustration they embrace them as a matter of faith and a way of life. We are at a point in America where need to be bringing people together."

Clinton also implied that Obama's comments reflect that he does not respect all Americans saying "I believe if you want to be president of all Americans you need to respect all Americans. You need to respect their values and their way of life and that’s exactly what I will do as president."

Clinton has been speaking about her hunting experience recently, but when asked when the last time she fired a gun or went to church – she objected saying "You know what that is not that is not a relevant question for this debate we can answer that another time this is about what people feel is being said about them and you know I went to church on Easter that is not what this is about. This is about how people look at the democratic party and the democratic party leadership."

Clinton also rejected any notion that she was out of touch – due to her not living in a middle class lifestyle and spending so much time living a more privileged life. Clinton said "Well Bill and I have worked very hard our entire lives and I am very grateful for the successes we’ve have had – and I think a lot of the way we live, even today you know my mother lives with us I've met a lot of mothers and aunts who living with people in these houses as we walk down the street. We are obviously very appreciative of the opportunities we have been given we don’t take anything for granted."[/q]



i just don't see the Obama people as willing not just to slit throats, but willing to slice lengthwise down the vein.

and, notice in the above, it's all negative. it's all about how Obama is a black John Kerry.

it's amazing how a black man raised by a white single mother is somehow an out-of-touch elitist, especially when his income is about 1% of the Clinton's net worth, but hey, that's how it goes i suppose.
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Old 04-13-2008, 06:03 PM   #75
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Originally posted by Irvine511




yes, she'd get crap for it in the press, and the Obama campaign would do something about it.

but would they do this:

[q]Clinton Says Obama's 'Bitter' Remark Could Cost Party General Election
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April 13, 2008 3:12 PM

ABC News' Eloise Harper Reports: Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., took the opportunity to capitalize on her rivals comments that people in small towns are "bitter" for the third day in a row.

Speaking to reporters outside some homes in Scranton, Pennsylvannia where she has family roots and today was greeted by many supporters holding signs and offering encouragement. She made the argument that Sen. Barack Obama's comments could cost the party the election and that the party has been seen as out of touch by male candidates in the past. Clinton also criticized Obama for not "owning up to his remarks."

Clinton was asked if this moment was her opening in the race – the one that she has been looking for. Clinton responded saying,"I think what’s important about this is that Senator Obama has not owned up to what he said, and taken accountability for it you. You know, first said he was right and attacked me for raising his remarks and referencing them. Then he admitted he may have said what he said in artfully. And now he he’s deeply apologized if he offended anyone. But what people are looking for is an explanation."

Clinton also threatened that these comments could really hurt the Democratic Party – making a veiled comparison to what happened to John Kerry and Al Gore.

"The Democratic party has been unfortunately viewed by many people over the last decades as being elitist and out of touch we have waged elections over that you don’t have to think too far to remember that good men running for president were viewed as being elitist and out of touch with the values and the lives of millions of Americans. So I think this is a very significant concern that people have expressed. You know the front page of the paper today in Scranton is very pointed and the mayor and mayors across Pennsylvanian and people across our country have all reacted," she said.

Clinton repeated the argument she has been making these past days saying, "I do not believe, as Senator Obama apparently does, that Americans in small towns and small cities and rural areas cling to religion and gun ownership out of frustration they embrace them as a matter of faith and a way of life. We are at a point in America where need to be bringing people together."

Clinton also implied that Obama's comments reflect that he does not respect all Americans saying "I believe if you want to be president of all Americans you need to respect all Americans. You need to respect their values and their way of life and that’s exactly what I will do as president."

Clinton has been speaking about her hunting experience recently, but when asked when the last time she fired a gun or went to church – she objected saying "You know what that is not that is not a relevant question for this debate we can answer that another time this is about what people feel is being said about them and you know I went to church on Easter that is not what this is about. This is about how people look at the democratic party and the democratic party leadership."

Clinton also rejected any notion that she was out of touch – due to her not living in a middle class lifestyle and spending so much time living a more privileged life. Clinton said "Well Bill and I have worked very hard our entire lives and I am very grateful for the successes we’ve have had – and I think a lot of the way we live, even today you know my mother lives with us I've met a lot of mothers and aunts who living with people in these houses as we walk down the street. We are obviously very appreciative of the opportunities we have been given we don’t take anything for granted."[/q]



i just don't see the Obama people as willing not just to slit throats, but willing to slice lengthwise down the vein.

and, notice in the above, it's all negative. it's all about how Obama is a black John Kerry.

it's amazing how a black man raised by a white single mother is somehow an out-of-touch elitist, especially when his income is about 1% of the Clinton's net worth, but hey, that's how it goes i suppose.
What I see from that (besides the appalling lack of punctuation - who wrote that piece?) is a politician capitalizing on the mistake/weakness of another. Nothing particularly out of line, or shocking to me. It happens all the time, and I don't think it's necessarily evil. It's not like she's fabricated that he's had an out-of-wedlock, biracial child as a result of an affair, or anything.

The things Hillary are attributing to Obama - elitism, being out of touch with segments of the population, not being electable in the general election - I see Obama supporters saying the same about Hillary all the time. I do agree though, that as far as I know, Obama himself has not done this, but still. Pot, kettle much?
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