Obama Slams Small Town America - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-12-2008, 08:09 PM   #46
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,883
Local Time: 06:14 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


You know, it's not as if Obama has consistently shown wild errors in judgment and the kind of thinking that would make one wonder whether he would take decision making seriously.
You're right. He's had an amazingly (short) record on decison making. He was against the war as an Illinois state senator, and was a U.S. senator for about one year before setting the groundwork to campaign for president in earnest.
__________________

__________________
Bluer White is offline  
Old 04-12-2008, 08:17 PM   #47
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,334
Local Time: 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep


what I meant and mean

should be obvious by the preceding sentence

And yet you brought race into your discussion.
__________________

__________________
martha is offline  
Old 04-12-2008, 08:54 PM   #48
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 07:14 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra

The problem I see with what he said is that he can be interpreted as implying that rural people are all religious freaks, gun nuts, and bigots. Many rural people are indeed any and all of those things. But so are many urban people. That is divisive. I don't think he intended it to be, but sometimes people say stupid things when they don't really understand people and I think that's what he has done here. No one likes to be lumped into broad categories (especially negative ones) -- does it not raise hackles to when you hear someone making not so flattering comments about all blacks, all women, all gays, all Asians, all liberals, all men, all Americans, all Jews, all Muslims, all Christians, etc.? It makes people feel as if they are being seen not as individuals, but as a lump -- and a backwards, bigoted one at that.

I know he wasn't saying this directly to the people in small towns in the rust belt, but during a fundraiser in SF. Of course for many that makes it worse because there is the feeling of being ridiculed by a bunch of rich city people -- it's no fun feeling as if you are the butt of a joke and I do think quite a few rural and small town people feel that way about these comments. In addition he's putting the blame on his not connecting with these people on them instead of him and that isn't exactly going to win anyone over.

I believe he's going to be the Democratic nominee so I will vote for him in November. But I also think he's going to need every vote he can get -- especially in states such as Ohio -- and alienating people with tactless comments isn't the way to do it. He needs to think harder about how he phrases everything because absolutely everything he says is under a microscope and will be used against him if at all possible.
This is precisely what I meant when I used the word "slams" for this thread. Obama - whether intentional or not - did lump all rural Americans under their usual stereotype. That wasn't a smart move and that could hurt him in the upcoming primaries.
__________________
Pearl is offline  
Old 04-12-2008, 08:58 PM   #49
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,883
Local Time: 06:14 AM
Mrs. Clinton's cronies will say these type of comments make Obama unelectable.
__________________
Bluer White is offline  
Old 04-12-2008, 09:10 PM   #50
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Pearl
This is precisely what I meant when I used the word "slams" for this thread. Obama - whether intentional or not - did lump all rural Americans under their usual stereotype. That wasn't a smart move and that could hurt him in the upcoming primaries.
The primaries are about over

and Obama has the inside track to the nomination

I believe he will get the youth vote
and that is very vocal here

it is these small town people blue collar workers that he really needs

and a decent portion of us old bastards to be successful

I don't see his campaign having the success he needs with those groups

regardless of how Michelle stacks the risers behind the podium
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 01:14 AM   #51
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 03:14 AM
Quote:
12 reasons 'bitter' is bad for Obama

Mike AllenSat Apr 12, 6:04 PM ET

A Clinton comeback was looking far-fetched. But operatives in both parties were buzzing about that possibility Saturday following the revelation that Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) told wealthy San Franciscans that small-town Pennsylvanians and Midwesterners “cling to guns or religion” because they are “bitter” about their economic status


In fact, this is a potential turning point for Obama’s campaign — an episode that could be even more damaging than the attention to remarks by his minister, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, since this time the controversial words came out of his own mouth.

Here are a dozen reasons why:

1. It lets Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) off the mat at a time when even some of her top supporters had begun to despair about her prospects. Clinton hit back hard on the campaign trail Saturday. And her campaign held a conference call where former Iowa Gov. Tom Vilsack, a Pittsburgh native, described Obama’s remarks as “condescending and disappointing” and “undercutting his message of hope.”

2. If you are going to say something that makes you sound like a clueless liberal, don’t say it in San Francisco. Obama’s views might have been received very differently if he had expressed them in public to Pennsylvania voters, saying he understood and could alleviate their frustrations.

3. Some people actually use guns to hunt — not to compensate for a salary that’s less than a U.S. senator’s.

4. Some people cling to religion not because they are bitter but because they believe it, and because faith in God gives them purpose and comfort.

5. Some hard-working Americans find it insulting when rich elites explain away things dear to their hearts as desperation. It would be like a white politician telling blacks they cling to charismatic churches to compensate for their plight. And it vindicates centrist Democrats who have been arguing for a decade that their party has allowed itself to look culturally out of touch with the American mainstream.

6. It provides a handy excuse for people who were looking for a reason not to vote for Obama but don’t want to think of themselves as bigoted. It hurts Obama especially with the former Reagan Democrats, the culturally conservative, blue-collar workers who could be a promising voter group for him. It also antagonizes people who were concerned about his minister but might have given him the benefit of the doubt after his eloquent speech on race.

7. It gives the Clinton campaign new arguments for trying to recruit superdelegates, the Democratic elected officials and other insiders who get a vote on the nomination. A moderate politician from a swing district, for example, might not want to have to explain support for a candidate who is being hammered as a liberal. And Clinton’s agents can claim that for all the talk of her being divisive, Obama has provided plenty of fodder to energize Republicans.

8. It helps Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) frame a potential race against Obama, even though both of them have found support among independents. Now Republicans have a simple, easily repeated line of attack to use against Obama as an out-of-touch snob, as they had with Sen. John F. Kerry after he blundered by commenting about military funding, “I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”

9. The comments play directly into an already-established narrative about his candidacy. Clinton supporters have been arguing that Obama has limited appeal beyond upscale Democrats — the so-called latte liberals. You can’t win red states if people there don’t like you. “Elites need to understand that middle-class Americans view values and culture as more important than mere trickery,” said Paul Begala, a Clinton backer. “Democrats have to respect their values and reflect their values, not condescend to them as if they were children who’ve been bamboozled.”

10. The timing is terrible. With the Pennsylvania primary nine days off, late-deciding voters are starting to tune in. Obama and Clinton are scheduled to appear separately on CNN on Sunday for a forum on, of all topics, faith and values. And ABC News is staging a Clinton-Obama debate in Philadelphia on Wednesday. So Clinton has the maximum opportunity to keep a spotlight on the issue. Besides sex, little drives the news and opinion industry more than race, religion, culture and class. So as far as chances the chattering-class will perpetuate the issue, Obama has hit the jackpot.

11. The story did not have its roots in right-wing or conservative circles. It was published — and aggressively promoted — by The Huffington Post, a liberally oriented organization that was Obama’s outlet of choice when he wanted to release a personal statement distancing himself from some comments by the Rev. Wright.

12. It undermines Democratic congressional candidates who had thought that Obama would make a stronger top for the ticket than Clinton. Already, Republican House candidates are challenging their Democratic opponents to renounce or embrace Obama’s remarks. Ken Spain, press secretary for the National Republican Congressional Committee, said: “There is a myth being perpetuated by Democrats and even some in the media that an Obama candidacy would somehow be better for their chances down ballot. But we don’t believe that is the case.”
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 08:16 AM   #52
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,979
Local Time: 06:14 AM
Whatever his intention was it doesn't look good. When you run for President everything you say will be scrutinized to the Nth degree-and the truth is that he was given a free pass for quite a while (and also he didn't say anything stupid -or maybe he did and it just wasn't reported). Yes people are bitter, and rightfully so. But it is a stereotype to say that all are turning into gun toting anti-immigrant bigots. It does come across as elitist judgmental stereotypes, the very thing he stands for being against.

Are people in his church "bitter" and thus turning to their religion? And antipathy towards those who aren't like them? I don't believe that at all, but couldn't some people say that? Is Reverend Wright "bitter"?

It's an unfair implication to suggest that religion will always be used by people in the circumstance he is describing in a negative way. Some use it as as a support system, the only thing that keeps them going sometimes.

Fair or not things like this will work against him. The problem I have with it is that for me it runs counter to everything I believe him to stand for and his openmindedness and rejection of stereotypes. He has certainly faced obstacles in his life, and I would think he would not want others to make stereotyped judgments about how he dealt with them.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 12:30 PM   #53
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 06:14 AM
and the irony, of course, is that Obama has been crushing the $100m+ Clintons in all of these gun-totin' states.

but, hey, we're back to Rove-style politics, and the only people better at this than Rove are the Clintons. and yet, Obama still seems to be surviving this well, as HRC's numbers continue to drop and he halves her lead in PA.

cling to whatever other articles of fear you want, the fact remains that Obama has soundly beaten Clinton because he's simply a better candidate than she is, and she comes with negatives that he hasn't begun to exploit -- like, you know, Monica Lewinsky -- but that the Republicans surely will, whereas the Clintons have done everything to Obama that the Republicans ever could.

but, go for it, Clintonistas. back to the culture wars. stoke those fires. because *that's* how Democrats continue to go about losing elections.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 01:20 PM   #54
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 12:14 PM
This is like trying to play chess in the gladiators' arena.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 02:09 PM   #55
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 07:14 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and the irony, of course, is that Obama has been crushing the $100m+ Clintons in all of these gun-totin' states.

but, hey, we're back to Rove-style politics, and the only people better at this than Rove are the Clintons. and yet, Obama still seems to be surviving this well, as HRC's numbers continue to drop and he halves her lead in PA.

cling to whatever other articles of fear you want, the fact remains that Obama has soundly beaten Clinton because he's simply a better candidate than she is, and she comes with negatives that he hasn't begun to exploit -- like, you know, Monica Lewinsky -- but that the Republicans surely will, whereas the Clintons have done everything to Obama that the Republicans ever could.

but, go for it, Clintonistas. back to the culture wars. stoke those fires. because *that's* how Democrats continue to go about losing elections.
And I remember the thread where you said you weren't biased.
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 02:22 PM   #56
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 06:14 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra


And I remember the thread where you said you weren't biased.




could you explain?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 02:28 PM   #57
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 07:14 AM
You know there's not much chance I see at this point, Irvine, that your candidate is not going to be the nominee. You chose your candidate for good reasons. You can assume, or not, that I chose mine for my own good reasons. Among the posters here likely to vote Democratic, the Obama supporters overwhelm the Clinton supporters. But I've noticed here and elsewhere that the Obama supporters are pretty thin-skinned for likely winners. Sorry, but you can't expect all of us to shut up and fall in line. It's not a divine coronation, it's a bunch of politicians applying for the same job. Both Democrats have similar platforms, but we're voting for people here, not platforms obviously, and what captures your imagination may not capture mine.

The rustbelters here were noting what we found to be accurate and inaccurate in his statement and how it might (or might not) play here. Except for some of the rural areas, guns are not a big issue. The religion is generally socially conservative Catholic, but there's no big outrage against gay marriage. Generally I find the gay marriage issue one of indifference here. Course push hasn't come to shove here, so I'm not saying it wouldn't be a problem if it was on the ballot, but I don't see anybody trying to make it a ballot issue. (There is a strong prolife contingent here--hence the success of Bob Casey, a son of Scranton) Probably our biggest shame (in my opinion) is the anti-immigrant (read anti-Mexican, anti-Dominican Republic, not a whole lot of people outraged about the illegal Eastern European populace here being that there is a heavy concentration of people with Eastern European heritage here-as well as Irish, Welsh and Italian)

Bitter isn't a word I'd use to describe the people here. Cynical and distrustful, yeah. And any bitterness we might have is directed at the locals who've fucked us over local matters.

I'm not speaking for all of Pennsylvania here. Just the northeast.

What fears do you think we Clinton supporters are embracing? The supporters you cyber-know.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 02:35 PM   #58
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 06:14 AM
I have lived most of my life in a small town in the Rust Belt.

I would say that Obama is spot on. However, that statement is not his most eloquent moment, and, guaranteed, his detractors will fixate on semantics and try to destroy him over it, by saying that he hates "rural folk." Then we'll just have our usual nasty election cycle, where "rural America" will just end up as ignored as ever.

We seem not to compete on ideas anymore; we compete on semantics.
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 02:45 PM   #59
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,483
Local Time: 06:14 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
Among the posters here likely to vote Democratic, the Obama supporters overwhelm the Clinton supporters. But I've noticed here and elsewhere that the Obama supporters are pretty thin-skinned for likely winners.


i find many of the attacks on Obama to be astonishingly unfair, especially because i've always thought the treatment of Hillary was unfair. but this stuff about Obama having to apologize for something Spike Lee said, the Rev. Wright stuff, pretty much everything that has come up seems to be blown way, way out of proportion.

you bring up a good point about him being the likely nominee, which is why it's astonishing to see the Clintons smacking him down in grotesque ways -- have you gotten a sign that says "I'm not bitter"? because the Clinton folks are passing them out in PA right now -- that seems to be paving the way for a McCain victory so that Hillary can rebound for 2012.

much of the thin-skin you talk about comes from the Clinton machine itself and their personal glory at the expense of the party and the expense of what is good for the country. what's going on is that she's going to lose, but she's going to make sure we all lose with her. THAT is where my irritability comes from. and there's the glee she seems to take in tearing down people that reminds me of no one more than W. Bush himself.


[q]Sorry, but you can't expect all of us to shut up and fall in line. It's not a divine coronation, it's a bunch of politicians applying for the same job. Both Democrats have similar platforms, but we're voting for people here, not platforms obviously, and what captures your imagination may not capture mine.[/q]

that's obviously fine. i just wish the case would be made for Hillary as a politician. it hasn't. the narrative about the campaign is now about how Obama isn't going to win. so vote for Hillary. because Obama can't win. that doesn't strike me as a compelling reason to vote for anyone, and it's quite depressing to see, because it's a replay of what politics has devolved into, where people drag themselves to the booth in order to vote for the lesser of two evils, when we're sick of both candidates, and both candidates make us sick, but we've got to vote, and hey, gotta choose one, and so i'll just choose one who seems to be a bit more culturally close to me, because the devil you know ...

when he first started, Obama seemed a step away and a step above all this. it's been disheartening to see the only Democrats able to play the Republican fear game turn their knives on their candidate, and they're probably not going to win anyway!.

and so they lay the framework for 2012.



Quote:
What fears do you think we Clinton supporters are embracing? The supporters you cyber-know.

the fear that America won't vote for a black man. that he's too risky. too unknown. and you know us. so vote for the known quantity. don't dream. don't strive to be better. keep it simple, and let's give power back to the family that had it before. Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton. how much longer can we keep going?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-13-2008, 02:46 PM   #60
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 07:14 AM
Just engaging in a little tourism here, us hardscrabble people. PS, I'm not quite sure Bob Casey is going to be able to turn Obama into a shot and a beer type.

Edit: this post was in answer to my fellow rustbelters.
__________________

__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com