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Old 04-24-2012, 07:04 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by mobvok View Post
Well, maybe if no one makes eye contact or responds to Mrs. Garrison, she'll eventually get tuckered out and wander back to her nearest local newspaper website comment thread to yammer into the abyss.

Or not. But she's basically just spitting out random codewords at this point.
Whats this about?

I can put you on the ignore list too, along with the others who've made hateful and trolling remarks or personal attacks. Or would you rather i just report this post to the moderators?

Also, im not a she.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:23 PM   #122
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Never said he wasn't.

What I said was that the problems from 2000 to 2008 are spilling over into 2009 and beyond.
I will stop you right here because this is the Obama economy, not anyone other administrations economy.

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Any problems that haven't been fixed by the time Obama leaves office will be for the next president to fix. And when they can't fix them, the president after that will have to deal with them.
Whatever happened to HOPE & CHANGE and CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN?

Obama ran on turning things around...he hasn't. This is his economy and his war....his success and his failures. End of story.

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This happens often in history. Every president inherits some problem of some kind, small or large, from the one before. If they do not fix it, they should be held responsible for not doing so, but at the same time if the problem is large enough, no president that follows that sort of disaster will get it fixed right away. Didn't FDR have to go through years of struggle before his plans to fix the mess that lead to the stock market crash, and the depression that followed, started to work? It happens to everyone.
First off, we're not talking about FDR. This is Obama general discussion. Obama is running for re-election, with his economic record. Not FDR, or Bush, or anyone else.

SO did Obama lie then when he said this?

FLASHBACK: Obama: My Presidency Will Be 'A One-Term Proposition' If Economy Doesn't Turn In 3 Years - YouTube

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Besides that, while I definitely think Obama can and should do more, at the same time, I get the feeling he at least WANTS to fix this, is trying to fix this. If Romney's in office I'm not going to get that same impression. And again, add in a beyond stubborn, pigheaded opposition, an electorate that pretty much sat back and figured Obama would fix everything overnight instead of, you know, doing their own sacrificing and pitching in to help Obama out, the fact that Obama has, like, fifty thousand things on his plate he needs to fix or that people want him to fix, and yeah, I'm not at all surprised we haven't made a whole hell of a lot of progress.
So Obama has 50,000 things on his plate he needs to fix, please tell me why he's found time to play 94 rounds of golf then? Or appear on every late night talk show? Or take several week long vacations in Hawaii? Did he think this was going to be a 4 year vacation? I realize he was a community organizer and an absent senator....what was he expecting though when he came to Washington?

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Plus, keep in mind, too, any plans Obama DOES try to implement get shot down by people who think it's a sign of a massive government takeover. He's either not doing his job or he's going to turn this country into an evil socialist empire when he does try to fix things. What do people want Obama to do, exactly, help or butt out? They have to quit bitching and make up their minds on that issue already.
What Mr. Obama needs to do, is help create an environment where business will thrive and grow, and not raise taxes on the job creators to the extent where they throw in the towel. Meanwhile half of the country doesn't even pay income taxes. Not create a society where people can collect unemployment insurance for 99 weeks or whatever that figure is, perfectly healthy people depend on stamps and "Obama bucks" because its readily available and they are too lazy to work. The only people he's really really helped is the welfare folks and the wall street execs who got the big bonuses. Everyone else (those of us who pay taxes, that is) gets to pay for him and Michelle to jet set around the world at our expense. Yep, all this for a damn flag.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:35 PM   #123
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Sincere apologies for the language, but the question(s) still stand: Why on earth is this the fault of the President (any President - same would go for Bush and that spy plane incident with China), and why on earth should Iran give the drone back?
No problem, all is forgiven

To answer your question though:

Iran making overtures to China on access to US drone technology | Fox News

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While the Iranians claim they've reverse-engineered the American drone that went down last year inside its borders, Fox News has learned that Tehran is making overtures to the Chinese to potentially give them access to the sensitive drone technology.

The drone's stealth coating, which resists detection by radar, is of particular interest to the Chinese, who also sought access to a stealth U.S. helicopter tail from Pakistan after the Usama bin Laden raid.

A former intelligence official earlier told Fox News it's unlikely the Iranians could figure out how to recreate the drone, despite their claims over the weekend -- and that the pressing concern would be they would try to use the technology to bargain with the Chinese or the Russians.

While China does not necessarily have the technology to help significantly advance Iran's nuclear program in exchange for access to drone parts, China could offer Iran an IOU of sorts -- for a favor like a veto at the U.N. Security Council, the former official said.

The Russians also would be interested in any U.S. intelligence collection capability, and could offer Iran ballistics technology useful for a nuclear delivery system.

Still, the former official described any information the Iranians have been able to glean about the drone's reconnaissance history as "low-hanging fruit," since it would be contained in the drone's equivalent of a black box.

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta also cast doubt Monday on Iran's claims, as did Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn., speaking on "Fox News Sunday."

"I think there is a history here of Iranian bluster, particularly now when they are on the defensive because of our economic sanctions against them," Lieberman said. "I don't have confidence at this point that they are really able to make a copy of it. It's a very sophisticated piece of machinery."

As for Iranian claims they have broken the codes or encryption, the claims were described to Fox News as a stretch because the encryption "keys" are changed on a monthly basis, and sometimes even more frequently than that.

"The Iranians are pulling data down, intercepting data all the time, but they can't decode it," the former intelligence official said.

A 10-week investigation into the downing of the CIA drone in Iran, completed in February, raised questions as to whether the malfunctions inadvertently may have handed the Iranians not only the aircraft but its data.

Based on the review, Fox News was told that investigators think one of the drone's three major "data streams" began sending back bad information to its U.S.-based operator. A leading question is whether the bad data caused the drone's operator to inadvertently land the aircraft. But it also raises the possibility that the faulty data stream could have prevented the drone from dumping the intelligence it had collected. When a drone malfunctions, it is programmed to dump data so it does not fall into the wrong hands.

Fox News was told in February that the CIA's comprehensive review has been unable to replicate the specific malfunction that brought down the drone in Iran. Contact was lost with the drone and its operators on Nov. 29.


Read more: Iran making overtures to China on access to US drone technology | Fox News
I mean, this can't be good, right?
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:04 PM   #124
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Why? It was never designed to provide for a 20 year retirement. When Soc Security was created in the 30's life expectancy at birth was only 58 for men and 62 for women--the original retirement age was 65. You do the math.
Yeah, even in the abstract, I don't see how Social Security is sustainable with increased life expectency without ever raising the retirement age, or increasing payroll taxes. The problem with raising the retirement age is that increased life span does not necessarily mean increased number of useful working years, especially for those with more manual labor type jobs (who happen to be the ones from whom SocSec is probably most useful).

The present SocSec issue may be fixable, but overall there is a long-term demographic issue of how to deal with an aging population that is not necessarily more productive in its later years. Increased taxes may be the only way to deal with that, and that may be uncomfortable, but whether taxes go up or not, people have a responsibility to spend a smaller and smaller portion of their income so that they can subsidize their life past their working years. The root of the issue really lies there, in the demographics; no policy towards SocSec can truly change that.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:17 PM   #125
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Whats this about?

I can put you on the ignore list too, along with the others who've made hateful and trolling remarks or personal attacks. Or would you rather i just report this post to the moderators?

Also, im not a she.
I'm ticked because I thought I made a good point with the gas prices. You listed "higher gas prices" under a list of Obama's failed economic policies, and I pointed out that criticism is flawed because all policies that lower gas prices are not necessarily good policy. Case in point, the financial crisis. And using it as a simple metric for evaluating the economy is also flawed, because gas prices will increase if demand increases- i.e, if the economy is actually doing well and expanding. It's even bad from a geopolitical standpoint, as praising the American government for lowering prices encourages policies that prop up "stable" Middle Eastern dictators!

Your only response was to ignore that and jump to different topics; the housing market and the national debt. If you refuse to engage in any form of actual discussion about your posted views, then I hardly see it as a loss to place me on your ignore list.

INDY, I see your post and will get to it.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:23 PM   #126
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The root of the issue really lies there, in the demographics; no policy towards SocSec can truly change that.
Ponzi scheme:

an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks.

This one, and similar schemes in Europe, just took 80 years to unravel.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:28 PM   #127
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Why? It was never designed to provide for a 20 year retirement. When Soc Security was created in the 30's life expectancy at birth was only 58 for men and 62 for women--the original retirement age was 65. You do the math.
But why do I care about the life expectancy at birth, if we're talking about the expected length of retirement? Then we want life expectancy, age 65 in the 30s vs. today. It's not exact, but this link shows that from 1940 to 1990, at age 65 gained 2.5 years of retirement and women gained 5.

But remember, the full retirement age is already scheduled to increase to 67 for people in my generation. By these stats, I've gained only half a year of retirement.

I completely disagree with the implied conclusion of your point, which is that residents of one of the richest, most powerful, most productive countries on the planet should not be allowed to invest that ability into another year or two of leisure before death.

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Please make note of something I put in bold from the article:
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“The general fund has been borrowing from Social Security and we've borrowed well over $2 trillion,” he said. “That money has got to be paid back. How's it going to be paid back? It's going to be paid back by the other general expenditures of the federal government having to be reduced to make way for the payments that we're going to have to make on those bonds.”
We've seen the government almost come to a halt over the cutting of 10 billion dollars from projected spending raises somewhere down the road and yet Congress is going to find the meddle to cut spending in order to payback the 2 trillion dollars owed to Social Security? Really?
I'm confused, how does that change the fact that raising the retirement age is among the relatively least effective options of saving money?

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I'd like to see more on those stats. Counting the deaths of the poor from drug abuse or murder, for instance, against live expectancy would render a false picture of health in senior years.
How is that a false picture? Dead people are dead, and lower income people die faster than higher income people. So not only are poorer people more likely to die of drug abuse or become a homicide, we should also make them work longer!

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Which in inflationary times would truly be a penalty.
...what am I supposed to conclude from this general sniping at alternatives like COLA or the payroll tax? That raising the retirement age is the harm-free option?
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:32 PM   #128
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Ponzi scheme:

an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks.

This one, and similar schemes in Europe, just took 80 years to unravel.
Ehh, in all honesty, pretty much every government in the world acts in a way similar to a Ponzi scheme right now. It's probably possible to prevent unravelling in general, although SocSec may be an exception.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:36 PM   #129
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Stay the course Mrs G, keep ignoring context, keep throwing shit maybe some will stick, keep putting those that push you to engage on the ignore list, and please whatever you do, mention "hope and change" as much as you can because that really shows you have a true understanding of politics.

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Old 04-24-2012, 09:43 PM   #130
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Noooooooooo

A ponzi scheme definitionally must work by bringing in ever-more new investors and their cash, until it reaches an unsustainable number and collapses. After a few rounds, more people than are alive on planet Earth are required to keep the system going. If you somehow reach that, we soon start hitting the raw # of atoms in the universe, and on from there.

For Social Security or any other transfer program, as long as the money coming in from workers matches the money going out to recipients, it can be sustained forever. You either take a little more or give a little less until it reaches balance.

Other than an apple not being an orange, apples and oranges are quite similar!
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:04 PM   #131
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Noooooooooo

A ponzi scheme definitionally must work by bringing in ever-more new investors and their cash, until it reaches an unsustainable number and collapses. After a few rounds, more people than are alive on planet Earth are required to keep the system going. If you somehow reach that, we soon start hitting the raw # of atoms in the universe, and on from there.
The problem is that SocSec is only really sustainable in its current form if the number of young people keeps growing, which is not at all happening in the United States. As the number of retirees expands, SocSec is in trouble if the number of workers doesn't expand too.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:17 PM   #132
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But remember, the full retirement age is already scheduled to increase to 67 for people in my generation. By these stats, I've gained only half a year of retirement.
Life after retirement is longer as well.


Average Remaining Life Expectancy for Those Surviving to Age 65

------ Male Female

1940 12.7 14.7
1950 13.1 16.2
1960 13.2 17.4
1970 13.8 18.6
1980 14.6 19.1
1990 15.3 19.6

Quote:
I completely disagree with the implied conclusion of your point, which is that residents of one of the richest, most powerful, most productive countries on the planet should not be allowed to invest that ability into another year or two of leisure before death.
Unfortunately,now we're the brokest nation in the history of the world.

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I'm confused, how does that change the fact that raising the retirement age is among the relatively least effective options of saving money?
Your stat about raising the rate 1% or tweaking the COLA, that's only AFTER the U.S. Treasury pays back to the Social Security trust fund the 2 trillion dollars they borrowed to fund "investments" of previous presidents and congresses. In other words, Social Security is really broke now with trillions more in unfunded liabilities on the horizon. But not to fear, Nancy Pelosi has assured us that "these vital initiatives remain strong."

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How is that a false picture? Dead people are dead, and lower income people die faster than higher income people. So not only are poorer people more likely to die of drug abuse or become a homicide, we should also make them work longer!
I'd just like to see more details.
Misleading statistics 101: If 10 rich guys all live to be 100 but only 8 poor guys live to 100 because 2 were killed at the age of 20, the average life expectancy for the poor guys would be 84 even though, if you avoided getting killed in your youth, you would live just as long as the rich guys.

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...what am I supposed to conclude from this general sniping at alternatives like COLA or the payroll tax? That raising the retirement age is the harm-free option?
It's not snipping. Inflation is really a form of taxation and if you're living on a fixed income it makes a great deal of difference. And as for increased payroll taxes:
1) I think we have more than enough income redistribution going on in this country already without raising taxes further on the young to transfer to the old.
2) And enough joblessness without making it even more expensive for a business to hire a worker.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:19 PM   #133
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The problem is that SocSec is only really sustainable in its current form if the number of young people keeps growing, which is not at all happening in the United States. As the number of retirees expands, SocSec is in trouble if the number of workers doesn't expand too.
That is an overly-narrow definition of "current form", as all that needs to be done once to absorb the baby boomer bump is slightly adjust either the payroll tax higher by a point or two or cut benefits slightly. My objections with INDY are of the best and worst relative ways of doing that, but they are ultimately the same sort of tweaks the program has already been through over the last several decades.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:40 PM   #134
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Life after retirement is longer as well.


Average Remaining Life Expectancy for Those Surviving to Age 65

------ Male Female

1940 12.7 14.7
1950 13.1 16.2
1960 13.2 17.4
1970 13.8 18.6
1980 14.6 19.1
1990 15.3 19.6
Well, these are the same numbers I used. Projecting out a bit, men gained 2.6 years of LE between 1940 and 1990, while my retirement age went up two years to 67, so..... I get an extra six tenths of a year's retirement? That's an extra 7 months, six days. Woooo. Women will have an extra 3 years. That's it.

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Your stat about raising the rate 1% or tweaking the COLA, that's only AFTER the U.S. Treasury pays back to the Social Security trust fund the 2 trillion dollars they borrowed to fund "investments" of previous presidents and congresses. In other words, Social Security is really broke now with trillions more in unfunded liabilities on the horizon. But not to fear, Nancy Pelosi has assured us that "these vital initiatives remain strong."
If Social Security is "broke", that suggests it's a distinct body with its own accounting separate from the federal government, like....the Red Cross, or Intel. But it can't be broke, because its spent the last thirty years putting surplus deposits into US Treasuries. If I won a million bucks thirty years ago, started dropping that million into buying US Treasuries, and now started pulling that back into cash, am I broke? My understanding is that the trust fund treasuries are already on the US debt.

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I'd just like to see more details.
Misleading statistics 101: If 10 rich guys all live to be 100 but only 8 poor guys live to 100 because 2 were killed at the age of 20, the average life expectancy for the poor guys would be 84 even though, if you avoided getting killed in your youth, you would live just as long as the rich guys.
I went back and grabbed this figure from the PDF at my link



It's "at age 65", so I believe that addresses your concern. Note that lower-income men of 2006 are still worse off than high-income men of 1982 despite 24 years of medical and social advances. Income inequality is a big concern with raising the retirement age.

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It's not snipping. Inflation is really a form of taxation and if your living on a fixed income it makes a great deal of difference. And as for increased payroll taxes, I think we have more than enough income redistribution going on in this country already without raising taxes further on the young to transfer to the old.
I would just like you to make the case directly that a higher retirement age would do the most benefit at the least harm. Simply saying "that option harms somebody because of X" is a bit frustrating, yeah I know it will but my position is that it's less worse than the alternatives.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:04 PM   #135
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and not raise taxes on the job creators to the extent where they throw in the towel.

seriously?


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Meanwhile half of the country doesn't even pay income taxes.

ok, well, that sums it up.

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Not create a society where people can collect unemployment insurance for 99 weeks or whatever that figure is, perfectly healthy people depend on stamps and "Obama bucks" because its readily available and they are too lazy to work.
you mean like you, unemployment benefits recipient?
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