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Old 07-27-2012, 03:59 PM   #586
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Do you think it is inappropriate to criticize the President on the economy because of Bush? Since when does a President get a free pass on an important issue for four years thanks to the previous President?
Has anyone said this?

This has to be the one of the weaker attacks from the right. No one is giving or asking for a free pass, they are just asking for context. Context applies in every other logical discussion in life, so it should apply in a campaign as well. Argue the legitimacy of the context, not the fact that context was brought up.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:06 PM   #587
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I think it's important to judge what policies a president has actually been able to pass and what they've actually accomplished. There hasn't been very much. Like the tax cuts, government expansion, and deficit increase or not, it's hard to deny that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act helped boost the economy; indeed, the economy started growing again around then that bill went into effect. The Affordable Care Act was also done under the first two years, but any impact that it's had on the economy is very questionable, since it doesn't really come into effect for another couple of years. Since 2010, there hasn't been much of substance. Why isn't Obama "fixing the economy"? Because he's the president, not Congress. What Congress wants is Keynesian stimulus entirely to rich people. What Obama wants is Keynesian stimulus for the majority of people and modest tax increases for rich people. These are basically incompatible. Neither party seems to care at all about the deficit, although both abuse the hell out of the deficit for political gain. Both parties realize that true austerity would nuke the economy as it did for Europe. Meanwhile, the Fed has been sort of propping up the economy... at least to the point of preventing contraction, although I'm starting to think that it may soon be time for another round of QE. But Obama has had very little influence over any of this.

It's absurd to look at a span of time and say "well, we're not booming, so it's Obama's fault, and Romney will do better". What it is important to do is look at what Obama has actually done, and what Bush actually did, and what Romney will actually do - and put all three in the context of a friendly Congress, a lukeworm Congress, and a hostile Congress.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:12 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by Angel617 View Post
Do you think it is inappropriate to criticize the President on the economy because of Bush? Since when does a President get a free pass on an important issue for four years thanks to the previous President?
Of course I don't think its inappropriate to criticize Obama on the economy because of Bush, and in no way am I giving him a free pass. Bush got the ball rolling with the recession and dismal economy. Yes, Obama could have done a little more to improve it, but as I said, fixing an economic crisis doesn't happen over night.
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:08 AM   #589
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His only accomplishment is gay marriage and health care which nobody wants.
Nobody? I dunno, I certainly want those things.

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Everything he says is a lie.
Such as...?

Also, digitize, excellent post .
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Old 07-28-2012, 01:47 AM   #590
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Moonlit, actually i am for gay marriage. And obviously health care needs to be reformed but i feel the way he did it will make it worse. He barely pushed it through even though the majority of Americans did not want it. Nancy Pelosi said that of course congress should vote for it so we can find out whats in it. Wow. Only in America.

It seems that the hope and change that he promised for Americans never came. I feel that he was elected because independents voted for him in large quantities and most were sick of Bush. He sacrificed the economy to push through health care. He complains about taxing the rich but extended the Bush tax cuts. His stimulus was pushed through without anyone reading it and it did little to contribute to the GDP. The only thing i see is roads being repaved that didnt need to be repaved and his signs saying he paid for it. It's not the government's job to boost the economy. It's the government's job to create an environment where private companies thrive and then collect minimal taxes from these companies to run government.
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Old 07-28-2012, 05:12 AM   #591
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Agreed on your points (and didn't mean to imply you weren't for gay marriage, just funny to hear someone state nobody wanted it. But apologies for the misunderstanding).

I definitely agree he should be fighting back harder against the Bush tax cuts. And the healthcare bill should be a lot better than what it currently is (after all, we won't start seeing any benefits that do exist in it for two years. I'd kind of prefer it be sooner than that, myself).

But I wouldn't call those "lies", necessarily, so much as promises he tried to make and found harder to keep because of all sorts of variables that were in the way (an uncompromising Congress, Americans who brought into the "death panels" BS, people who don't understand what socialism means and who thus convoluted the hell out of so many of our political discussions as a result, a Democratic party that really, desperately needs more spine, corporate influence that runs our government all over the place, a struggling economy that has a push and pull over what we wish to fund right now and what we don't, etc.).

It sucks, and that shouldn't mean he should give up on fighting for what he really wants to do and promised he'd do, absolutely not. He should be pressed to work harder if we feel he's failing somewhere. And hey, if he gets a second term, who knows, he could be emboldened to really start digging in and doing what he wants. Don't know. But campaigning is all about trying to inspire people. It would've been great if he'd come out and said, "Hey, I'll do what I can to try and get this and that done", but that doesn't win you elections. So if his "hope and change" doesn't reflect reality, well, I'd argue that's in part because we didn't want to listen to the reality of the situation. Doing so might require us to make as much sacrifice as we're expecting everyone else to make. And when you've got the wealthier people complaining because, oh, my god, they might have to pay more in taxes, or people complaining because their taxes are going to things they might not personally agree with, or thinking it's someone's fault if they can't afford healthcare, or whatever, that tells you a lot about our willingness to sacrifice and help right there.

As for the government being involved in the economy...eh, I dunno about that. I think they have to be involved to some extent. Private business helps, definitely, but I don't see why it has to be one or the other working to keep our economy stable. Why can't both work together?

EDIT: I really hope all of this made sense-it's late, and I'm kinda tired, and it turned into a ramble of sorts. If I've again misunderstood something or don't make sense, I'm sorry, and please feel free to clarify or ask me to do so.
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Old 07-28-2012, 01:34 PM   #592
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Moonlit, actually i am for gay marriage. And obviously health care needs to be reformed but i feel the way he did it will make it worse. He barely pushed it through even though the majority of Americans did not want it.
Actually, if you poll Americans on the provisions within "Obamacare" - the majority are for it. It's only when it's labeled "Obamacare" that half the country finds their Pavlovian trigger and hates it.

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It seems that the hope and change that he promised for Americans never came.
Do you think that having the most obstructionist Congress in history might have something to do with his perceived lack of progress? And I say "perceived" because I actually think he's accomplished quite a lot considering the crippling partisanship he has to deal with.

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He complains about taxing the rich but extended the Bush tax cuts.
Probably because Congress would absolutely not allow the tax cuts to expire, and made it quite clear that they had absolutely no interest in compromising on the issue.
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:49 PM   #593
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Actually, if you poll Americans on the provisions within "Obamacare" - the majority are for it. It's only when it's labeled "Obamacare" that half the country finds their Pavlovian trigger and hates it.


Exactly.

This cartoon was hanging in the waiting room of the largest physicians group here in conservative Texas:



I saw an article over a year ago where people who associated themselves with the Tea Party even polled high support when they were polled on the provisions separately. Very telling...
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Old 07-28-2012, 09:30 PM   #594
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Exactly.

This cartoon was hanging in the waiting room of the largest physicians group here in conservative Texas:



I saw an article over a year ago where people who associated themselves with the Tea Party even polled high support when they were polled on the provisions separately. Very telling...
If they were real Americans, they'd burn their medicare cards and social security checks. We have to get this country back on track and stop these socialist policies! Until they do this, people who call themselves Conservatives are just RINOs or those neo-libertarian pot smoking Paulites
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Old 07-29-2012, 01:08 PM   #595
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Has anyone said this?

This has to be the one of the weaker attacks from the right. No one is giving or asking for a free pass, they are just asking for context. Context applies in every other logical discussion in life, so it should apply in a campaign as well. Argue the legitimacy of the context, not the fact that context was brought up.
There is a perception out there that the economic conditions that exist today are the fault of one person, Bush, and that Obama is in no way responsible for economic conditions in 2012, nearly four years after he became President. The degree to which Bush was responsible for the economic crash in late 2008 is debatable, and the degree to which Bush is responsible for economic conditions in July 2012 is less debatable. Obama and his economic policies have been in place for nearly four years now, and its a mistake to simply be excusing Obama from economic concerns today and harping about someone who has not been in the White House making policy for almost four years now.

Bush is not running in this election and should not really be part of the debate about who to vote for in November. Its Obama vs. Romney and that is what people should be focused on.

Obama and his supporters need to be honest about the record of the last four years and do their best to explain and defend their policies over that time. Shifting blame to a former President is simply dishonest and a failure to accept responsibility.
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Old 07-29-2012, 01:41 PM   #596
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Originally Posted by Angel617

There is a perception out there that the economic conditions that exist today are the fault of one person, Bush, and that Obama is in no way responsible for economic conditions in 2012, nearly four years after he became President. The degree to which Bush was responsible for the economic crash in late 2008 is debatable, and the degree to which Bush is responsible for economic conditions in July 2012 is less debatable. Obama and his economic policies have been in place for nearly four years now, and its a mistake to simply be excusing Obama from economic concerns today and harping about someone who has not been in the White House making policy for almost four years now.

Bush is not running in this election and should not really be part of the debate about who to vote for in November. Its Obama vs. Romney and that is what people should be focused on.

Obama and his supporters need to be honest about the record of the last four years and do their best to explain and defend their policies over that time. Shifting blame to a former President is simply dishonest and a failure to accept responsibility.
The blame for the crash really isn't debatable its dishonest to turn your eyes away from the fact that certain policies over years lead to this demise. It's also dishonest to talk as if crashes such as these recover quickly. It's economics 101. Do you remember during the Bush years how Republicans talked about Clinton's foreign policies and how it lead to the then current issues? CONTEXT. Economies, wars, health epidemics, etc these all take a culmination of years to develop and then take years to fix. Nothing this big changes overnight, and for the Republicans to pretend otherwise is just playing dumb for politics sake.
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:25 PM   #597
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Obama and his supporters need to be honest about the record of the last four years and do their best to explain and defend their policies over that time.
True, because judging by the 'Romney standard' Obama has a very good record regarding job creation in the economy.
Quote:
we ought to give [...] at least six months or a year to get those policies in place.
So according to Romney, Obama has created about 3.2 million private sector jobs (and about 2.8 million overall, as he has decreased the government jobs). Not too shabby...
If the first six months don't count... - The Maddow Blog
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Old 07-29-2012, 06:45 PM   #598
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The blame for the crash really isn't debatable its dishonest to turn your eyes away from the fact that certain policies over years lead to this demise. It's also dishonest to talk as if crashes such as these recover quickly. It's economics 101. Do you remember during the Bush years how Republicans talked about Clinton's foreign policies and how it lead to the then current issues? CONTEXT. Economies, wars, health epidemics, etc these all take a culmination of years to develop and then take years to fix. Nothing this big changes overnight, and for the Republicans to pretend otherwise is just playing dumb for politics sake.
The report of the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission would disagree with your statement that the blame for the crash isn't debatable. Economists and analysts more intelligent than you or I continue to debate and analyse where the blame lies for the crash, and will be debating it for decades.

Have you read the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission report, incidentally? Well, here it is:

http://fcic.law.stanford.edu/report/
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Old 07-29-2012, 06:48 PM   #599
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Moonlit, actually i am for gay marriage.
On this forum, it isn't enough to be in the pro-gay marriage camp - if you don't think that legalising gay marriage at a federal level is the most important government priority right now, then you're a homophobe Bible-bashing trogoldyte.
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Old 07-29-2012, 07:20 PM   #600
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Certainly we've got numerous things of massive importance to deal with right now, nobody's arguing that.

But given the heavy duty problems we do need to deal with, for people to still dig in their heels on that particular issue in this day and age, and for people to continue to blame most, if not all, of our current ills on it, is ridiculous. And it's something that I think could be much more easily and quickly dealt with compared to, say, fixing our economy, which is going to take a good, long while.

Plus, I tend to be of the belief that a country that recognizes the basic rights of its citizens is a country that's better equipped to deal with all the other issues thrown its way. The less time we spend worrying and fretting over the idea of gays getting married, the more free time we have to devote to issues that are actually worthy of our concern.
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