Obama General Discussion, vol. 3 - Page 55 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-08-2012, 08:26 PM   #811
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I hope you keep running on this "backlash". It's a great, winning issue for the GOP. The louder, the better.

Odd how in one thread we're told that not only should public opinion polls be discounted, but actual "put it to the vote of the people" democratic ballot initiatives should be overturned. While in this thread polls are used to support an autocratic mandate.

Even odder, while I can't find a "right" to marriage or free women's health care in the Constitution... I can find the "right" to the free exercise of religion.
__________________

__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 02-08-2012, 08:29 PM   #812
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Odd how in one thread we're told that not only should public opinion polls be discounted, but actual "put it to the vote of the people" democratic ballot initiatives should be overturned. While in this thread polls are used to support an autocratic mandate.

i think you may want to rethink this line of thought.


Quote:
Even odder, while I can't find a "right" to marriage or free women's health care in the Constitution... I can find the "right" to the free exercise of religion.

does it say you can use your religion to discriminate against other people?
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 02-08-2012, 08:49 PM   #813
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,272
Local Time: 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
While in this thread polls are used to support an autocratic mandate.
Who is saying that?

What I am suggesting is that you have an issue that you can feel free to run on. It's a loser issue for you, and the people would vote to that effect. Nevermind that it's a loser issue in the court of public opinion, it is also a total waste of time in an election when the US is faced with significant economic and other problems.

If you want to run on gay marriage - go ahead. The GOP has done that in the past and was successful. Did I find it repugnant? Sure, but it was their prerogative. You want to run on it again? Do it. I think you'd find the results would be a tad different.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 04:23 PM   #814
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 05:42 AM
beginning to wonder if this isn't yet another trap of self-destruction set by the Obama administration to make the GOP look like a party of anti-woman religious fanatics. look at how far the GOP wants to go -- "we think anyone should be able to deny women contraception whenever they want!"


Quote:
Legislation introduced by Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) to reverse the Obama administration’s birth control rule would effectively permit any employer to deny contraception coverage in their employee health plans, critics note.

“Any employer could deny birth control coverage under Rubio’s bill and all the employer would have to do is say it’s for a religious reason,” said Jessica Arons, Director of the Women’s Health and Rights Program at the liberal Center for American Progress. “There is no test to prove eligibility. It’s a loophole you could drive a truck through.”

The Rubio bill, The Religious Freedom Restoration Act, comes in response to a Catholic firestorm over the fact that the administration’s exemption on its birth control rule does not include religious hospitals and universities along with churches. But this bill appears to go far beyond that, permitting any employer to claim the religious exemption without a criteria.

Rubio Bill Lets ANY Employer Deny Birth Control Coverage | TPMDC

i mean, honestly. this is contraception.

it also shows what is, indeed, the slippery slope of "my faith made me do it" arguments.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 04:31 PM   #815
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 11:42 AM
Quote:
But this bill appears to go far beyond that, permitting any employer to claim the religious exemption without a criteria.
This was actually my thought when I first read the Catholic Church's arguments against the decision--well, what's so special about colleges and hospitals? Why not any old business run by a religious person, why not any old religious conviction? Like my right to not consider black people for employment because my church objects to race mixing, for example. Or to bar employees in an interracial marriage from claiming spousal benefits. Jehovah's Witnesses reject blood transfusions, when they own businesses can they opt out of covering those?
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 05:26 PM   #816
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Even odder, while I can't find a "right" to marriage or free women's health care in the Constitution... I can find the "right" to the free exercise of religion.
But how does mandating that an health insurance policy includes reimbursing contraceptives for women infringe on someone's right to freely exercise his/her religion? Someone can still proclaim he/she belongs to a certain religion, worship the deity of choice, etc. Those rights are not being infringed.
__________________
Popmartijn is online now  
Old 02-09-2012, 07:18 PM   #817
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,863
Local Time: 05:42 AM
if i cannot express my religion through hatred and judgment, then what is the point?
__________________
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 07:32 PM   #818
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,256
Local Time: 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popmartijn View Post
But how does mandating that an health insurance policy includes reimbursing contraceptives for women infringe on someone's right to freely exercise his/her religion? Someone can still proclaim he/she belongs to a certain religion, worship the deity of choice, etc. Those rights are not being infringed.
Exactly.

Fine, people. You want to try and stop selling contraception? Then I don't want to hear any complaining of any sort from you when people find themselves with children they can't afford to take care of. In fact, I hope you'll be picking up where the parents left off, then, and pitching in to help care for these children. If you're as Christian as you claim, that shouldn't be a problem at all, right?
__________________
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 08:36 PM   #819
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
backlash from the 98% of Catholics who use birth control?
98% !! So where's the issue with "access" that make these mandates so frickin important? Seems like contraception is widely available to those... oh yeah, Obamacare never was about health care. It's about the top-down controlling of health care decisions.


Quote:
as the chart shows, it's not a "religious" issue at all, it's an identity issue for white evangelical protestants.
Evangelical? You might want to rethink THAT. I personally have no problem with contraceptives. It's a large part of my practice. Including Plan B. But I posted on this forum the day this came to my attention (Jan 21st in Mandatory Health Care Thread). It was so long after that before this became a national issue I was beginning to worry I had overreacted.

I hadn't. It took awhile to get out because, to the MSM, it was a non-story.
Now it's news. Now people are reacting.

This is an issue of government overstep and First Amendment religious freedom. But if you need to think of this as "anti-woman religious fanatics" gettin' ginned up by Fox News and Karl Rove... you go right ahead.
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 08:51 PM   #820
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,863
Local Time: 05:42 AM
Dear Lord.
__________________
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 09:09 PM   #821
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,655
Local Time: 04:42 AM
Is it that you really don't understand this issue, or that you just have to make a boogie man out of everything?

Can anyone tell me how this infringes on anyone's rights?
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 10:13 PM   #822
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
98% !! So where's the issue with "access" that make these mandates so frickin important? Seems like contraception is widely available to those... oh yeah, Obamacare never was about health care. It's about the top-down controlling of health care decisions.

the statistic i had read was that 98% of Catholics use birth control. i don't know what percentage of them have it covered in their health care plan. i do know that not everyone who works for a Catholic organization (hospital, college, whatever) isn't a Catholic. it seems bonkers that people who are employed by a Catholic university be denied access to birth control through their employment-based health care because of the religious beliefs of their employers ("beliefs" that aren't even shared by anything other than a tiny minority of their followers).

this isn't about Catholics being denied birth control. this is about Catholics denying it to others.





Quote:
Evangelical? You might want to rethink THAT. I personally have no problem with contraceptives. It's a large part of my practice. Including Plan B. But I posted on this forum the day this came to my attention (Jan 21st in Mandatory Health Care Thread). It was so long after that before this became a national issue I was beginning to worry I had overreacted.

i don't think evangelicals are against birth control. i DO think evangelical respond to dog whistles such as this. religious freedom! Obama! boogeyman!





Quote:
I hadn't. It took awhile to get out because, to the MSM, it was a non-story. Now it's news. Now people are reacting.

you're right. just as Obama has eviscerated the Republicans on foreign policy so that it isn't an issue, he's started to do the same with the improving economy.

guess the only thing left is to start up the culture wars again.



Quote:
This is an issue of government overstep and First Amendment religious freedom. But if you need to think of this as "anti-woman religious fanatics" gettin' ginned up by Fox News and Karl Rove... you go right ahead.

nope. it's about religious voters with an enormous chip on their shoulder -- and who aren't likely to even be Catholics -- who think the big bad guvmunt is going to tell them what to do.

i'm thinking more and more that Obama is setting yet another culture war trap to gin up young voters. people in their 20's and 30's certainly value their birth control, since this is their child bearing years and they'd really rather be in charge of when they do and do not get pregnant. he's also aware that the white evangelical base is getting older, is looking more and more alien to an increasingly diverse America, and making them freak out about birth control (even if it's really "religious freedom") makes them look positively insane and thus unelectable.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 10:21 PM   #823
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,272
Local Time: 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post

this isn't about Catholics being denied birth control. this is about Catholics denying it to others.
I don't think it's even that.

It's the Church hierarchy (which seems to be never listened to by most Catholics on this issue anyway) and evangelical concern trolls who would at most other times trash Catholics as non-Christians and the Pope as the anti-Christ but suddenly they are oh-so-worried about Catholic dogma and catechism.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 10:45 PM   #824
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,272
Local Time: 05:42 AM
If we're going to start citing the Catholic church, let's at least be honest and point out another little nugget that's come out of the Vatican:

Quote:
Pope Benedict XVI and other church leaders said it was the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay.

Access to adequate medical attention, the pope said in a written message Nov. 18, was one of the "inalienable rights" of man.

...

In his own written statement, Cardinal Bertone had strong words in support of the need for governments to take care of all citizens, especially children, the elderly, the poor and immigrants.

"Justice requires guaranteed universal access to health care," he said, adding that the provision of minimal levels of medical attention to all is "commonly accepted as a fundamental human right."

Governments are obligated, therefore, to adopt the proper legislative, administrative and financial measures to provide such care along with other basic conditions that promote good health, such as food security, water and housing, the cardinal said.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:01 PM   #825
Blue Crack Supplier
 
coolian2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hamilton (No longer STD capital of NZ)
Posts: 42,920
Local Time: 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
If we're going to start citing the Catholic church, let's at least be honest and point out another little nugget that's come out of the Vatican:
like the constitution, we'll cite it when it suits, thank you very much.
__________________

__________________
coolian2 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com