Obama General Discussion II

[deep]

I have to say I am surprised at the collapse of support for Obama.

and in all likelihood, the big hit the Dems will take in the Nov elections

Even at two years out, I am concerned he will not get reelected.

And most of this I will not lay at his feet, but more at how fickle the American electorate are. In particular, the so-called independent voters and youth that were there in Nov 2008. But have quickly fallen away.

 

[BVS]

I have to say I am surprised at the collapse of support for Obama.

and in all likelihood, the big hit the Dems will take in the Nov elections

Even at two years out, I am concerned he will not get reelected.

And most of this I will not lay at his feet, but more at how fickle the American electorate are. In particular, the so-called independent voters and youth that were there in Nov 2008. But have quickly fallen away.

A lot can happen in two years so I'm not ready to say he won't get reelected, but the rest of this post I strongly agree with...

 

[deep]

I didn't say he won't
I said I was concerned

I think the economy will slowly improve (it always does), unemployment will go from just under 10% to around the 8.1-8.3 range.

GOP will claim because of their 2010 pick ups, things are a little better.
We will have had 2 years of mostly gridlock.

A 'safe' GOP nom like a Romney or Pawlenty , will be able to beat Obama.

 

[Mrs. Garrison]

I have to say I am surprised at the collapse of support for Obama.

and in all likelihood, the big hit the Dems will take in the Nov elections

Even at two years out, I am concerned he will not get reelected.

And most of this I will not lay at his feet, but more at how fickle the American electorate are. In particular, the so-called independent voters and youth that were there in Nov 2008. But have quickly fallen away.

I am an independent who supported McCain in 2008 and Bush before that. You are correct about how quickly the support for Obama has faded...of course...it's the economy (stupid).

Honestly i think Hillary should have won the nomination and then the election. But thats all water under the bridge at this point. What bothers me the most now is the deep dark underbelly of the fanatical right that has been showing its face since Obama was elected.

Another disturbing trend, almost everything bad i have ever heard about the GOP has come to light with this new "movement". Greed, hate mongering, bigotry, homophobia, racism, etc...it's all coming to pass. The more i see of this the more i realize, with these folks money and power is far more important than human life.

I fear home grown terrorism almost as much as i fear something abroad. I've heard enough idle chatter among certain wealthy older WASP types to make me think a "revolution" of some sorts is coming. Not just at the ballot box in november, mind you. These so called "patriots" are clearly hoarding supplies, ammunition, whatever they can get their hands on. They are either crazy or they are propping up the next McVeigh.

I supported Bush and the so-called "compassionate conservatives" for 8 years, but this new breed...? What is going on now is just so perverse, for someone like me it is the unthinkable. Even i have my limits to what i can take. These Tea Party assholes can go fuck themselves. I will be voting against them from here on out. And they better not tread on me either.

 

[deep]

CNN Political Ticker: Former GOP leader apologizes to Obama, calls Republicans ‘racist’ � -

.

 

[BVS]

How many opposed his speech this year?

I guess it's convenient to apologize a year later when under indictment.

Although he is correct about his party.

On a similiar note I'm amused by how the hypocrisy of rants like that of Greer's last year go completely unoticed by the party voters.

The fact that Republican presidents did the same went completely unnoticed by so many. Same with the Memorial Day controversy, etc...

Yesterday Hannity was reading a report on air trying to point out that Obama was attending yet another black tie event this week. This one was for College athletes, he literally read the article word for word and then got to the sentence "The event was first started by President George Bush..." so he quickly trailed off saying "blah blah blah". He obviously didn't read the article before air time. That part wasn't important, what was important is that the Obama's are partying too hard. Yet, even though he made a very obvious on air faux pas, it will go unnoticed by his audience.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

And most of this I will not lay at his feet, but more at how fickle the American electorate are. In particular, the so-called independent voters and youth that were there in Nov 2008. But have quickly fallen away.

Indeed. They're fickle and confusing, and forget simple facts: that the economy needs to take time to heal and that problems don't get solved overnight and that they need to help out. Once again, Obama did say he wanted us all to work TOGETHER. It's amazing how quickly everyone forgot that, or did they not even hear it at all?

I know nobody wants to hear that solving problems takes time when they've got economic woes. My family's going through that sort of thing right now, too. I get the frustration. Believe me, I do. But I also know that it took a long time for us to get here, it's going to take a long time to get us out, and we'll just have to get by as best we can in the meantime. And I'm not going to yell at the government and tell them to butt out only to get pissed at them because they aren't doing anything.

What bothers me the most now is the deep dark underbelly of the fanatical right that has been showing its face since Obama was elected.

Another disturbing trend, almost everything bad i have ever heard about the GOP has come to light with this new "movement". Greed, hate mongering, bigotry, homophobia, racism, etc...it's all coming to pass. The more i see of this the more i realize, with these folks money and power is far more important than human life.

I fear home grown terrorism almost as much as i fear something abroad. I've heard enough idle chatter among certain wealthy older WASP types to make me think a "revolution" of some sorts is coming. Not just at the ballot box in november, mind you. These so called "patriots" are clearly hoarding supplies, ammunition, whatever they can get their hands on. They are either crazy or they are propping up the next McVeigh.

I supported Bush and the so-called "compassionate conservatives" for 8 years, but this new breed...? What is going on now is just so perverse, for someone like me it is the unthinkable. Even i have my limits to what i can take. These Tea Party assholes can go fuck themselves. I will be voting against them from here on out. And they better not tread on me either.

*Massive applause for this bit* Perfectly said. Any conservative worth their salt should be deeply embarrassed to have this ilk associated with their viewpoint. If anyone out there honest to God thinks the current Republican Party will fix the problems Obama's having difficulty fixing, they are dreaming or quite frankly delusional or something. The bottom line is that these problems were going to be difficult to solve no matter which party was in office, neither one has all the answers to take care of everything more quickly than the other side. Add in the Republican Party's toxic elements you illustrated, and I sincerely do not want to see them taking back the majority anytime soon in any faction of the government. Obama's not perfect, no, neither are the Democrats. They have a lot of work they need to do, too, they have many problems with their setup, no question. But the bigotry and fearmongering from the Republicans is just...beyond terrifying. And disgusting. And not worth supporting.

Angela

 

[PhilsFan]

Yesterday Hannity was reading a report on air trying to point out that Obama was attending yet another black tie event this week. This one was for College athletes, he literally read the article word for word and then got to the sentence "The event was first started by President George Bush..." so he quickly trailed off saying "blah blah blah". He obviously didn't read the article before air time. That part wasn't important, what was important is that the Obama's are partying too hard. Yet, even though he made a very obvious on air faux pas, it will go unnoticed by his audience.

It was the parade of NCAA champions, sort of like how champions of major sports meet with the president. My university had two championship teams that made the trek to the White House, and the event got rave reviews.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I am an independent who supported McCain in 2008 and Bush before that. You are correct about how quickly the support for Obama has faded...of course...it's the economy (stupid).

Honestly i think Hillary should have won the nomination and then the election. But thats all water under the bridge at this point. What bothers me the most now is the deep dark underbelly of the fanatical right that has been showing its face since Obama was elected.

Another disturbing trend, almost everything bad i have ever heard about the GOP has come to light with this new "movement". Greed, hate mongering, bigotry, homophobia, racism, etc...it's all coming to pass. The more i see of this the more i realize, with these folks money and power is far more important than human life.

I fear home grown terrorism almost as much as i fear something abroad. I've heard enough idle chatter among certain wealthy older WASP types to make me think a "revolution" of some sorts is coming. Not just at the ballot box in november, mind you. These so called "patriots" are clearly hoarding supplies, ammunition, whatever they can get their hands on. They are either crazy or they are propping up the next McVeigh.

I supported Bush and the so-called "compassionate conservatives" for 8 years, but this new breed...? What is going on now is just so perverse, for someone like me it is the unthinkable. Even i have my limits to what i can take. These Tea Party assholes can go fuck themselves. I will be voting against them from here on out. And they better not tread on me either.

I like this post

 

[Pearl]

I don't want to be an echo here, but I agree, Mrs. Garrison's post is excellent!

 

[maycocksean]

I am an independent who supported McCain in 2008 and Bush before that. You are correct about how quickly the support for Obama has faded...of course...it's the economy (stupid).

Honestly i think Hillary should have won the nomination and then the election. But thats all water under the bridge at this point. What bothers me the most now is the deep dark underbelly of the fanatical right that has been showing its face since Obama was elected.

Another disturbing trend, almost everything bad i have ever heard about the GOP has come to light with this new "movement". Greed, hate mongering, bigotry, homophobia, racism, etc...it's all coming to pass. The more i see of this the more i realize, with these folks money and power is far more important than human life.

I fear home grown terrorism almost as much as i fear something abroad. I've heard enough idle chatter among certain wealthy older WASP types to make me think a "revolution" of some sorts is coming. Not just at the ballot box in november, mind you. These so called "patriots" are clearly hoarding supplies, ammunition, whatever they can get their hands on. They are either crazy or they are propping up the next McVeigh.

I supported Bush and the so-called "compassionate conservatives" for 8 years, but this new breed...? What is going on now is just so perverse, for someone like me it is the unthinkable. Even i have my limits to what i can take. These Tea Party assholes can go fuck themselves. I will be voting against them from here on out. And they better not tread on me either.

Here's hoping there's a lot more conservatives out there like you! Thanks for sharing.

To be honest, I'm really struggling with the midterms coming up here in Ohio. In the past I would never have considered voting a straight Democratic ticket. I would consider each candidate on their individual merits. But this year with the Republican party seemingly being hijacked by these wild-eyed hard-right fanatics I'm finding I'm uncomfortable with the GOP having any sort of advantage at either state or national level.

Thankfully I don't live in South Carolina. Sorry, but as much as I dislike the Republicans right now I could not bring myself to vote for that rube that snagged the Democratic nomination for Senate there.

 

[Mrs. Garrison]

Here's hoping there's a lot more conservatives out there like you! Thanks for sharing.

To be honest, I'm really struggling with the midterms coming up here in Ohio. In the past I would never have considered voting a straight Democratic ticket. I would consider each candidate on their individual merits. But this year with the Republican party seemingly being hijacked by these wild-eyed hard-right fanatics I'm finding I'm uncomfortable with the GOP having any sort of advantage at either state or national level.

Thankfully I don't live in South Carolina. Sorry, but as much as I dislike the Republicans right now I could not bring myself to vote for that rube that snagged the Democratic nomination for Senate there.

Thank you (and of course Pearl, Mrs S. , & M Angel too). Thing is, im not really a conservative. I realize in 2002 most of you probably thought i was, but thats not exactly the case. Im an Independent who has leaned conservative because of world events and the terror attacks. Being ex military i support the troops in everything they do, which meant i had to more or less support the war as well.

Like you i have even given serious thought to voting "straight democrat" in the mid terms just as a way to show this fanatical fringe what i think. I really can't stand these idiots, honestly they've lost me and they are every bit as bad (if not worse) than the Democratic party was from 2000 - 2006. It's pretty sad when the republicans can actually make Nancy Pelosi look sane and reasonable or even smart. But these dumbshits have somehow managed to do it. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

As for 2012 obviously thats a long way away. Obama hasn't exactly impressed me and Joe Biden is an idiot. Why Hillary isn't the VP is beyond me. But im telling you right now if the race in 2012 were held today and it was between Obama and the former half term Governor of Alaska, i would definitely vote Obama.

 

[namkcuR]

I agree with what was stated above, that the American public is feeble and impatient.

But it's not exactly right to just blame Obama for what's been going on(or not going on).

We live in a plutocracy, do we not? Each and every Senator and Congressperson took money from someone to pay for their campaigns; health insurance companies, banks, oil companies, just to name a few obvious ones. And each and every one of those someones will come back, when it suits them, to collect. And that's just the base form of legalized bribery that goes one between corporate America and congress; who knows what other corrupt deals are being struck in backrooms somewhere. And so that very powerful body, between having their strings pulled from above and engaging in political posturing, is in practice, an inefficient and, at least seemingly, ineffective body. And it is this way, no matter who the President is.

It astonishes me in two ways:

1. That there are consistently so many people who are perfectly willing to make careers being somebody's puppet, voting the way they're told, making some money, and not making any real difference nor doing anything that really matters.

2. That it's LEGAL! That it is within the law for Senators/Congresspeople or potential Senators/Congresspeople to take money from corporations or the people atop said corporations! It is indeed astonishing that is legal and accepted, and that nobody cares, and that so many don't even get that this is the way government works.

The reason, of course, that it's legal, is because the people who have the power to legislate differently regarding campaign finance are the same people who benefit from things being the way they are. The power to make/change campaign finance laws should be taken away from congress and given to another, independent, objective body - create one if no acceptable such body exists.

Do you guys think things will change, that corporate America will ever have less power over government than they do now? I'm seriously asking.

Anyway...my initial point was that, regarding how the economy, among other things, is handled, it is wrong to give the President all the credit or all the blame, because congress and their corporate masters share much of the responsibility.

 

[financeguy]

I am an independent who supported McCain in 2008 and Bush before that. You are correct about how quickly the support for Obama has faded...of course...it's the economy (stupid).

Honestly i think Hillary should have won the nomination and then the election. But thats all water under the bridge at this point. What bothers me the most now is the deep dark underbelly of the fanatical right that has been showing its face since Obama was elected.

Another disturbing trend, almost everything bad i have ever heard about the GOP has come to light with this new "movement". Greed, hate mongering, bigotry, homophobia, racism, etc...it's all coming to pass. The more i see of this the more i realize, with these folks money and power is far more important than human life.

I fear home grown terrorism almost as much as i fear something abroad. I've heard enough idle chatter among certain wealthy older WASP types to make me think a "revolution" of some sorts is coming. Not just at the ballot box in november, mind you. These so called "patriots" are clearly hoarding supplies, ammunition, whatever they can get their hands on. They are either crazy or they are propping up the next McVeigh.

I supported Bush and the so-called "compassionate conservatives" for 8 years, but this new breed...? What is going on now is just so perverse, for someone like me it is the unthinkable. Even i have my limits to what i can take. These Tea Party assholes can go fuck themselves. I will be voting against them from here on out. And they better not tread on me either.

Partially in the interests of playing devil's advocate - as it's boring for everyone to agree with each other - but also because I can understand why people are disappointed with Obama, how much of the Tea Party movement do you think is driven by Obama kow-towing to Wall St by continuing with the banking bailouts, and failing to achieve any real improvement in the economy (as far as I can gather, and of course I don't live in the US)?

I guess where I'm coming from is I don't think it's all about racism, homophobia, etc.

 

[maycocksean]

Partially in the interests of playing devil's advocate - as it's boring for everyone to agree with each other - but also because I can understand why people are disappointed with Obama, how much of the Tea Party movement do you think is driven by Obama kow-towing to Wall St by continuing with the banking bailouts, and failing to achieve any real improvement in the economy (as far as I can gather, and of course I don't live in the US)?

I guess where I'm coming from is I don't think it's all about racism, homophobia, etc.

I think the opposition to the banking bailouts is an response rooted in emotional not rational sense. It's not very emotionally satisfying to bail out the banks, but I have not seen a convincing argument that the economy would have been better off without it or even that it wouldn not have been much worse.

Likewise blaming the sitting president for economic woes is easy, but I don't personally believe the president has that much real impact on the state of the economy. They take credit when things are good and are blamed when things aren't but neither is really accurate in my opinion.

My issue with the oppositon to Obama is that it is very simplistic and emotional rather than logical and rational.

 

[BVS]

Excellent and eloquent as always

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Thank you (and of course Pearl, Mrs S. , & M Angel too). Thing is, im not really a conservative. I realize in 2002 most of you probably thought i was, but thats not exactly the case. Im an Independent who has leaned conservative because of world events and the terror attacks. Being ex military i support the troops in everything they do, which meant i had to more or less support the war as well.

Totally understood . I'd just joined the site in 2002, so I don't know if I'm all that familiar with your political stylings from back then, but of course, you're right, simply agreeing with a particular policy or a person doesn't automatically tie you to that party's mindset as a whole.

And you're welcome, too.

Like you i have even given serious thought to voting "straight democrat" in the mid terms just as a way to show this fanatical fringe what i think. I really can't stand these idiots, honestly they've lost me and they are every bit as bad (if not worse) than the Democratic party was from 2000 - 2006. It's pretty sad when the republicans can actually make Nancy Pelosi look sane and reasonable or even smart. But these dumbshits have somehow managed to do it. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

As for 2012 obviously thats a long way away. Obama hasn't exactly impressed me and Joe Biden is an idiot. Why Hillary isn't the VP is beyond me. But im telling you right now if the race in 2012 were held today and it was between Obama and the former half term Governor of Alaska, i would definitely vote Obama.

Very well put . Ditto to namkcuR's post as well.

I honestly don't know how I feel about the bailout stuff. Of course, I'm insanely pissed off when I hear about CEOs continuing to get bonuses and live their luxury lifestyles instead of being fired or sent to jail for any wrongdoings any of them may have committed in relation to this whole mess. No argument with the Tea Party folks on that aspect of it all, that is a valid complaint worth bringing up. But aside from that issue, I really don't know where to stand. I think, for one thing, it's too soon to tell just how well they'll work out, I imagine the effects of them will take some time to unfold. And for another, since both Bush and Obama supported them, all you wind up getting is typical partisan crap-"Well, it was wrong when Bush did it, but it was okay when Obama did it", or vice versa, and nobody ever bothers to discuss the bailouts themselves, their good and bad points.

Like I've said before, the Tea Party people may have some legitimate concerns about our financial future, but of course, all we see on the news is the lunatic fringe with the racist signs and the Hitler comparisons and shouting that Obama's a socialist or a communist with nary an understanding of what either one of those words, those concepts mean. And that's not fair, because those that may have the kind of logical, rational critiques that Sean pointed out that he wants to hear from said crowd inevitably get drowned out.

Angela

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

My issue with the oppositon to Obama is that it is very simplistic and emotional rather than logical and rational.

I have no issue with anyone who has logical and rational opposition to Obama and I have some of my own. I think you're supposed to or you're really not paying attention or doing your part.

For me it just gets all kinds of crazy when they take things he does and twist them into these paranoid wild theories and some people just buy into those without critical thinking. I was reading on a Nook yesterday about that book that's out by that David Limbaugh guy about how Obama's is the most destructive administration in our history and how all of these things he's doing are part of some sort of preexisting plan he had to purposefully mislead us and to carry out his master plan. Where is the evidence? It's all kinds of spaghetti being thrown against a wall and it does seem to be sticking.

I often wonder what it would be like now if Hillary Clinton had won and if these same people would be doing the same things to her even if she handled things completely differently. Is it really about Obama?

 

[Canadiens1131]

I think if the Republicans had a strong 2012 candidate hidden away somewhere we would have spied them by now.

Who do they have? Jindal? Chuckles Huckabee? Fudge Packin' Mitt? And of course, you know how bad the Republicans are when Palin is seriously being floated in the media as a 2012 nominee.

As bad as the Democrats are currently during the midterms, the Tea Party nutjobs are a huge problem for the Republicans. You have Karl Rove calling out O'Donnell publically as the wrong direction, and the wingnut wing led by Palin calling him out.

There's enough popular ferver to throw the Dems out of the White House, and the ultimate cruel joke for the right is that there's no one to put it behind. The Republican party is at the mercy of two bimbos as of today, the RNC is a disaster, and unless they can get their house in order in 2011 they have no shot at even making the next election close.

 

[Diemen]

I think the difference is that in the Democratic party those divisions would persist, but while there's some momentary conflict among Republicans right now, they're going to consolidate sooner or later to have a more unified narrative. After O'Donnell got elected, Republican party members were saying she'd have to raise her own money. It took all of about 24 hours for them to go back on that.

And don't forget the remarkable ability of the Democrats to fuck up. Coons is only head of O'Donnell by 11 points according to the latest poll. When O'Donnell & Co inevitably start getting nasty against him, we'll see if he can weather the storm - even considering O'Donnell is gold mine of embarrassing statements and stances on the issues.

 

[BonosSaint]

I have no issue with anyone who has logical and rational opposition to Obama and I have some of my own. I think you're supposed to or you're really not paying attention or doing your part.

For me it just gets all kinds of crazy when they take things he does and twist them into these paranoid wild theories and some people just buy into those without critical thinking. I was reading on a Nook yesterday about that book that's out by that David Limbaugh guy about how Obama's is the most destructive administration in our history and how all of these things he's doing are part of some sort of preexisting plan he had to purposefully mislead us and to carry out his master plan. Where is the evidence? It's all kinds of spaghetti being thrown against a wall and it does seem to be sticking.

I often wonder what it would be like now if Hillary Clinton had won and if these same people would be doing the same things to her even if she handled things completely differently. Is it really about Obama?

True, all that.

I listen to my conservative friends (and I have many. They are wonderful people and I would trust them with my life, just not my politics.) and they have drawn this line....whatever is on their side is wonderful and just brimming with integrity and grit and whatever is on the other side is dishonest and manipulative (not that I haven't seen some of that cloudy judgment on the other side either). It feels like of Stepfordy.

That creeps me out wherever I see it.

 

[financeguy]

I honestly don't know how I feel about the bailout stuff. Of course, I'm insanely pissed off when I hear about CEOs continuing to get bonuses and live their luxury lifestyles instead of being fired or sent to jail for any wrongdoings any of them may have committed in relation to this whole mess.

Angela

Well, Richard Fuld will probably face civil if not criminal legal hassles for the rest of his life. There have been many cases of successful prosecutions in the US of former CEO's found to have engaged in malfeasance.


Most people have no idea of the level of commitment and sacrifice involved in running a large company. (the aforementioned Fuld, for example, use to arrive in the office at 5.30 a.m. pretty much every day of his career). Now, granted, Wall Street bonuses in recent years have been unseemly and excessive and there are issues around 'rewards for failure' in some banks. The banking bailouts started by Bush and continued by Obama stick in the craw and rightly so.

 

[Mrs. Garrison]

Sorry, but I don't go along with this generalised and populist contempt for the boss class.

i guess it just boils down to greed at a time when a lot of people can't seem to make ends meet.

Most people have no idea of the level of commitment and sacrifice involved in running a large company. (the aforementioned Fuld, for example, use to arrive in the office at 5.30 a.m. pretty much every day of his career).

While i don't exactly run a large company, i do arrive at my office around 0520 hours every morning. Granted i don't work as late as these guys do, but im pretty sure i don't make anywhere near the amount of money they do either.

I can tell you when i was in the Army, well i didn't really have an office back then, but i was on duty 24/7 subject to being called up and shipped out at any given time. My typical day usually started around 0530 back then and sometimes it never ended.

You are correct though these CEO's do put their heart and soul into running a company, with lots of sacrifice on their part and on the part of their families. Kind of like the military does, minus the lousy pay and all that combat zone stuff.

 

[Canadiens1131]

I don't really have any problem with executives having huge salaries. There's a reason why the majority of them are there, favouritism or nepotism aside. Then again I don't really have a problem with pro sports salaries either.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

MrsSpringsteen hit it right on the head. There's this crazy fear around Obama that I really do not understand. I truly do not think he is out to corrupt our country's souls or bring us to the firey pits of hell or whatever it is some people think he's going to do. Hell, I wasn't even scared of Bush. Bush just made me sad (Cheney and Rumsfeld and the like, on the other hand, now that's a different story). And speaking as somebody who did vote for Obama, it's just insulting my intelligence, it's like these people think I and others who voted for him are stupid and just don't see the evil lurking in him. I mean, yeah, I tend to be more trusting of people than I probably should be, but I'd also like to think I'm a fairly good judge of character.

It never ceases to amaze me how the Democrats can constantly lose to such characters as O'Donnell or Palin or the like. You would think it'd be a complete cakewalk for them, but somehow, they manage to fumble it up. "Stepfordy" is the right word-hell, a lot of the people in the Republican Party even LOOK the part. Caked-on makeup (why does it always seem the women who are all super-Christ-y also wear way more makeup than is necessary?), plastered creepy smiles, the men look like the guys in those Extenze commercials...it's really unsettling.

(Speaking of crazy, by the way, so I've been seeing clips of the one guy who was recently running-his name escapes me now, buthe's ranting and screaming at the crowd and getting all in a frenzy and whatnot over why he was running. And I watch him and think, "So...he's perfectly okay, but Howard Dean let out a little yell at the end of a speech in 2004 in Iowa and everyone freaked out about that?")

Well, Richard Fuld will probably face civil if not criminal legal hassles for the rest of his life. There have been many cases of successful prosecutions in the US of former CEO's found to have engaged in malfeasance.

Good. I hope that continues to be the case.

Most people have no idea of the level of commitment and sacrifice involved in running a large company. (the aforementioned Fuld, for example, use to arrive in the office at 5.30 a.m. pretty much every day of his career). Now, granted, Wall Street bonuses in recent years have been unseemly and excessive and there are issues around 'rewards for failure' in some banks. The banking bailouts started by Bush and continued by Obama stick in the craw and rightly so.

Exactly. Like I've said before, if somebody has honestly and legitmately earned their keep and made a good living as a result, I'm fine with that. I have no issue with that.

But right now it just seems incompetence and corruption get praise and reward, and it's just infuriating to people. Especially when the money they scammed people out of could be put to better use, helping companies and people who genuinely could use it. And I do think it wouldn't kill the rich to share a little of their extra money every now and again. It's just the nice, decent thing to do.

But you are absolutely right, I imagine there is a lot that goes into running such a business. And that's why I'm torn. On the one hand, I don't want those who helped aid in the crisis to be rewarded, but on the other hand, the business itself may not be a bad business, it just unfortunately had some bad workers at its helm, so I don't know if we should necessarily throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. And there were some workers who were responsible and honest, and they shouldn't be punished for the actions of those who were crooks.

So yeah. It's very confusing.

Angela

 

[Canadiens1131]

MrsSpringsteen hit it right on the head. There's this crazy fear around Obama that I really do not understand. I truly do not think he is out to corrupt our country's souls or bring us to the firey pits of hell or whatever it is some people think he's going to do.

He's black.

I don't always agree with Bill Maher, but he is exactly on point in this segment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4TxGHcWaL4#t=0m20s

 

[Earnie Shavers]

It’s not simple racism. I don’t think it’s all about racism, but that absolutely is the fuel on the fire.

• A genuine concern/fear/anger over government spending is absolutely understandable and real and okay, and you have to believe would likely exist regardless of who is President (especially if they are a Democrat).
• Alongside that, this dawning of a realisation that the GOP establishment has been whipping up the base for years (decades) over social and cultural issues that it actually has no belief in, and no interest in addressing, is something that was surely going to come home to roost at some point in time. The GOP have been asking for this ‘insurgency’, IMO, for a long, long time. It’s entirely their own fault for playing their base for idiots for so long.

But you can’t tell me it wouldn’t be hitting these charged heights if Obama were white, or if simply it were Clinton that had won, all the way through. There might still have been a ‘Tea Party’ type movement based around reigning in government spending and reach, and if she’d tried again on healthcare, there no doubt would have been a somewhat similar reaction to that as well. There would definitely still be anger, probably still quite a charged environment, especially if it were a Clinton in power – quite the lightning rod for conservative hatred. But would there be all of this “Take America Back”, “Restoring Honour” bullshit, and screaming of socialist, Marxist, Hitler, tyranny, ‘evil’ taking over the country etc? Of course not.

And when you turn around and call one of these people a racist, they probably genuinely don’t feel that they are, in any simple “I don’t like black people” sense. But most of this – the acceptance and belief in people as moronic as Palin/Beck, an unfocussed outrage at and fear of anything government, the whole ridiculous ‘elitist’ thing, the over-reaction to everything (e.g. healthcare) as if its all some larger evil plot – is all absolutely born of an isolated ignorance, and a part of that with Obama as President is absolutely a deep discomfort with a black guy running the show. Definitely.

There is absolutely an element to their “what has gone wrong” argument and rage that doesn’t add up in any logical way. There’s the logical (spending, deficit etc), then this massive “?” gap between it and the extreme fear and rage. It has nothing to do with government spending, nothing to do with taxation, nothing to do with their own disappointment with the GOP – it has to have everything to do with an irrational inability to accept there’s a black guy in the Oval Office. Flip it to President Hillary Clinton, but leave everything else – bailouts, massive deficit, healthcare etc – the same. The real white hot end of the rage wouldn’t exist, would it? There’d be no argument about some fundamental change in America. No questioning of her - who is she, where is she really from, what is she really all about. No raging belief that she’s a secret angry extremist from somewhere else sent to destroy them all. It’s absolutely because he’s black. It’s absolutely racism.

 

[deep]

I often wonder what it would be like now if Hillary Clinton had won and if these same people would be doing the same things to her even if she handled things completely differently. Is it really about Obama?

I remember Bill Clintons 8 years very well.

The GOP were like rabid attack dogs the whole time.
He seemed to be better equipped to handle it than Obama is, it may just come down to an experience thing.

 

[Irvine511]

My issue with the oppositon to Obama is that it is very simplistic and emotional rather than logical and rational.

and, in large part, it's an expression of non-urban white identity.

 

[Canadiens1131]

I have to say I am surprised at the collapse of support for Obama.

and in all likelihood, the big hit the Dems will take in the Nov elections

I'm not. Here are a couple reasons:

McCain was a weak candidate. When push came to shove, and independent voters and reluctant rural voters saw what a mess his campaign was in '08, they voted for Obama with no better choice. Now in 2010, many of those voters have no problem going after him.

The groundswell of young voter support for Obama was only there for the election. I'm 23; my generation is lazy. They're the kind of people who will turn out for the election when whipped up into action, but will not follow the "important" side of politics during the actual term. The recent Supreme Court decision on corporations and campaign finance is huge, but I doubt many voters my age are aware of it or care, when it is in fact one of the biggest things to happen in US politics in the 00s. Young voters will only return to polling stations with additional ID about 30% of the time to make sure a provisional ballot of theirs is actually counted. Lazy lazy lazy. Midterm elections are boring.

The Healthcare debate. The Democrats unfortunately tried to play nice and do things in a bi-partisan fashion in the early-going, and they were utterly destroyed by the GOP's doom-and-gloom PR machine. Yes, it's very ironic seinor citizens will rail against Socialist Nazi Pig Obamacare while cashing their Social Security cheques and waiting for the volunteer Fire Department to come put out their house fires, but the Democrats let the Republicans take control of the debate over a long, hot summer, and it dragged out and got ugly. The healthcare debate was framed in a "big government" kind of way and not a "we need to do this so we don't go broke personally and as a nation" kind of way. I'm amazed the Dems didn't manage to appeal to the average American's pocketbook, when at the end of the day that is a more effective strategy than appealing to his regard for his fellow man.

~

The Democrats' ability to play meek underdogs and then completely squander a majority is still amazing. If they had half the PR capability of the GOP, the country would be on a better path today.

They were pussies during Iraq's early days, they were pussies when it all fell apart, and they were pussies in the administration-defining healthcare debate, with reps worrying about their own asses during the midterms that have now arrived.