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Old 12-10-2010, 12:03 AM   #466
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:05 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
thing is, Obama's approval ratings are very high among the broad coalition of the Left, with 80% of Democrats approving of his job.
Would be interesting to see the new ratings breakdown. He is delta 4 since he made the tax announcement, and my guess is that nearly all of those accounted for that change are on the left, not the right. Watch for the ratings to go down further with the passage of this bill.

Also, ratings are not reflective of voter enthusiasm, which is a separate measure.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:14 AM   #468
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it has been quite a week, and a bad one, too. we will see what the new ratings are, but his overall approval/disapproval numbers have been improving slowly but surely (and are ahead of where Reagan and Clinton were at this time).

the tax freak out by the Dems has much to do with insulating themselves from potential primary challenges from the left, which is also what the Ladies Collins and Snowe are worried about, but from the opposite direction.

what do you mean by "delta 4"?
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:15 AM   #469
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The Republicans will simply re-brand the Bush tax cuts as the Obama tax cuts in 2012 and run on a platform of deficit/debt reduction, and attribute an additional $300 billion of the deficit to him. Because they are better politicians, period.
There are a lot of stupid voters out there, but I'm not sure this will work on the moderates and independents. I think if they do this they'll be shooting themselves in the foot. Their base has been way too fired up about extending these cuts to forget where they came from...
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:18 AM   #470
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what do you mean by "delta 4"?
Sorry - 4 point swing.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:28 AM   #471
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The Republicans will simply re-brand the Bush tax cuts as the Obama tax cuts in 2012 and run on a platform of deficit/debt reduction, and attribute an additional $300 billion of the deficit to him. Because they are better politicians, period. He may be a better candidate, but they are better politicians, every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
On this you are right. The Republicans are frighteningly shrewd in the way they run campaigns. They have this ability to manipulate the public in a way that the Democrats haven't even started learning yet.

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This is to say nothing of the fact that it is largely Obama's fault that his base is completely deflated. There is no denying it, especially in light of the voting group statistics of the past election and the approval ratings. It would be nice to blame John Boehner for that, but doing so is dishonest and ignorant of the reality on the ground.
I blame Boehner for any stupid things he does/says that make the problem worse. And I do blame Obama when needed. He does need to learn how to confront the Republicans better. He does need to learn how to get out there and properly show the American people just how his ideas are helping or will help them. He shouldn't automatically brush off criticism from his base as often as he does. They have some very valid points and critiques. No, you should never focus solely on your base, because that's ignoring a whole mess of people out there as a result. But they ARE part of your electorate, they did help get you to where you are, so they deserve to be taken into account.

But while I do not disagree that Obama's done things that have weakened support amongst his base, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the base has failed, too. I mean, this...

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The people who were inspired to come out and vote for him in 2008 and usually don't bother would by and large stay home if the election was held today.
...if that is true, then those people are stupid. They want Obama to do something, they need to get out there and be just as enthusiastic now as they were two years ago. They should've been energizing him and rallying with him and working with him these entire past two years. They should've been organizing campaigns and protests and marches and whatever else they wanted to do to get their message out as often as possible these last two years.

And besides that, the people that voted then who normally didn't vote other times aren't the base anyway. They sound more like independents, or more moderate Democrats, who cared, but not all that much, until they found somebody who came along and they pinned all their hopes and dreams on him and thought, "Oh, he'll take care of everything." And yes, he can and should take care of the things he said he'd take care of. But he said numerous times he can't do this alone. He needs our help. And we didn't come to his aid very strongly.

Obama's screwed up. The Democrats have screwed up. The Democratic/Obama supporters have screwed up. The Republicans have screwed up. Everybody has dropped the ball these past two years.

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Boehner and a few others were claiming they were going to hold to their tea bag "principles"
Oh, that's what they're calling those nowadays ?

(Trying to lighten the mood a little)

Angela
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:30 AM   #472
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That's not what I heard. Boehner and a few others were claiming they were going to hold to their tea bag "principles"
Forgot to say that this is funny given that the largest coalition of Teabaggers came out against the tax cut bill today (on account of it contributing to the deficit) and is actively encouraging its people to protest.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:38 AM   #473
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Forgot to say that this is funny given that the largest coalition of Teabaggers came out against the tax cut bill today (on account of it contributing to the deficit) and is actively encouraging its people to protest.
Really? I haven't seen this. I mean it's what they should have done but it's not what I'm hearing on tea bag radio, or what they've been saying up to this point.
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Old 12-10-2010, 10:29 AM   #474
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Forgot to say that this is funny given that the largest coalition of Teabaggers came out against the tax cut bill today (on account of it contributing to the deficit) and is actively encouraging its people to protest.


agreed -- this is an interesting development. King Tea Bag Sen. Jim DeMint mentioned this earlier in the week on a conservative radio show, and it remains to be seen how well McConnell and Co. can slap them into line -- DeMint knows that dissatisfaction with the GOP is very high as well, and much of the GOP victories in the House (though they appeared to underperform slightly in the Senate) had more to do with anti-incumbancy than the feeling that Boehner and McConnell were great guys.

in a way, i like this. it shows that elements of the GOP feel screwed by parts of "the deal," and this could be ominous for Congress next year when the GOP takes over.
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Old 12-10-2010, 11:08 AM   #475
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Really? I haven't seen this. I mean it's what they should have done but it's not what I'm hearing on tea bag radio, or what they've been saying up to this point.
Say NO! to the Obama Tax Deal
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Old 12-10-2010, 11:14 AM   #476
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They're a disfunctional flip flopping divided group those baggers...
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Old 12-10-2010, 02:47 PM   #477
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This 'deal' may be more about our current tax system.



Could the Obama Admin be planning to make a move to throw it out and come up with a completely new system?
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:46 PM   #478
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Could the Obama Admin be planning to make a move to throw it out and come up with a completely new system?


yes. maybe.

Obama Directs Staff to Look at Tax Overhaul Options

a simpler tax system is something independents and moderates would love.

good luck.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:48 PM   #479
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This 'deal' may be more about our current tax system.



Could the Obama Admin be planning to make a move to throw it out and come up with a completely new system?
I've heard that, too. I really don't understand why anyone is itching for a fight for a simpler tax system.

If anyone thinks the knuckle-dragging, government-hating morons are getting jobbed by the Republicans and Tea Partiers now, just wait until they are rallying on the National Mall for a Flat Tax (that will accelerate the already intolerable income disparity).
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:08 PM   #480
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this column was very, very interesting:



Quote:
Swindle of the year

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, December 10, 2010;

Barack Obama won the great tax-cut showdown of 2010 - and House Democrats don't have a clue that he did. In the deal struck this week, the president negotiated the biggest stimulus in American history, larger than his $814 billion 2009 stimulus package. It will pump a trillion borrowed Chinese dollars into the U.S. economy over the next two years - which just happen to be the two years of the run-up to the next presidential election. This is a defeat?

If Obama had asked for a second stimulus directly, he would have been laughed out of town. Stimulus I was so reviled that the Democrats banished the word from their lexicon throughout the 2010 campaign. And yet, despite a very weak post-election hand, Obama got the Republicans to offer to increase spending and cut taxes by $990 billion over two years. Two-thirds of that is above and beyond extension of the Bush tax cuts but includes such urgent national necessities as windmill subsidies.

No mean achievement. After all, these are the same Republicans who spent 2010 running on limited government and reducing debt. And this budget busting occurs less than a week after the president's deficit commission had supposedly signaled a new national consensus of austerity and frugality.

Some Republicans are crowing that Stimulus II is the Republican way - mostly tax cuts - rather than the Democrats' spending orgy of Stimulus I. That's consolation? This just means that Republicans are two years too late. Stimulus II will still blow another near-$1 trillion hole in the budget.

At great cost that will have to be paid after this newest free lunch, the package will add as much as 1 percent to GDP and lower the unemployment rate by about 1.5 percentage points. That could easily be the difference between victory and defeat in 2012.

Obama is no fool. While getting Republicans to boost his own reelection chances, he gets them to make a mockery of their newfound, second-chance, post-Bush, Tea-Party, this-time-we're-serious persona of debt-averse fiscal responsibility.

And he gets all this in return for what? For a mere two-year postponement of a mere 4.6-point increase in marginal tax rates for upper incomes. And an estate tax rate of 35 percent - it jumps insanely from zero to 55 percent on Jan. 1 - that is somewhat lower than what the Democrats wanted.

No, cries the left: Obama violated a sacred principle. A 39.6 percent tax rate versus 35 percent is a principle? "This is the public option debate all over again," said Obama at his Tuesday news conference. He is right. The left never understood that to nationalize health care there is no need for a public option because Obamacare turns the private insurers into public utilities, thus setting us inexorably on the road to the left's Promised Land: a Canadian-style single-payer system. The left is similarly clueless on the tax-cut deal: In exchange for temporarily forgoing a small rise in upper-income rates, Obama pulled out of a hat a massive new stimulus - what the left has been begging for since the failure of Stimulus I but was heretofore politically unattainable.

Obama's public exasperation with this infantile leftism is both perfectly understandable and politically adept. It is his way back to at least the appearance of centrist moderation. The only way he will get a second look from the independents who elected him in 2008 - and abandoned the Democrats in 2010 - is by changing the prevailing (and correct) perception that he is a man of the left.

Hence that news-conference attack on what the administration calls the "professional left" for its combination of sanctimony and myopia. It was Obama's Sister Souljah moment. It had a prickly, irritated sincerity - their ideological stupidity and inability to see the "long game" really do get under Obama's skin - but a decidedly calculated quality, too. Where, after all, does the left go? Stay home on Election Day 2012? Vote Republican?

No, says the current buzz, the left will instead challenge Obama for the Democratic nomination. Really now? For decades, African Americans have been this party's most loyal constituency. They vote 9 to 1 Democratic through hell and high water, through impeachment and recession, through everything. After four centuries of enduring much, African Americans finally see one of their own achieve the presidency. And their own party is going to deny him a shot at his own reelection?

Not even Democrats are that stupid. The remaining question is whether they are just stupid enough to not understand - and therefore vote down - the swindle of the year just pulled off by their own president.

Charles Krauthammer - Swindle of the year


conservative Krauthammer also gets at the reason why any challenge from the Left -- including one by HRC -- is insane: African-Americans will freak out if the first black president is challenged from within his own party. while the college kids may not be quite as excited as they were in 2008, the independents are much more important.
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