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Old 09-17-2010, 08:51 PM   #256
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Excellent and eloquent as always
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Old 09-18-2010, 03:23 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Mrs. Garrison View Post
Thank you (and of course Pearl, Mrs S. , & M Angel too). Thing is, im not really a conservative. I realize in 2002 most of you probably thought i was, but thats not exactly the case. Im an Independent who has leaned conservative because of world events and the terror attacks. Being ex military i support the troops in everything they do, which meant i had to more or less support the war as well.
Totally understood . I'd just joined the site in 2002, so I don't know if I'm all that familiar with your political stylings from back then, but of course, you're right, simply agreeing with a particular policy or a person doesn't automatically tie you to that party's mindset as a whole.

And you're welcome, too.

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Like you i have even given serious thought to voting "straight democrat" in the mid terms just as a way to show this fanatical fringe what i think. I really can't stand these idiots, honestly they've lost me and they are every bit as bad (if not worse) than the Democratic party was from 2000 - 2006. It's pretty sad when the republicans can actually make Nancy Pelosi look sane and reasonable or even smart. But these dumbshits have somehow managed to do it. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

As for 2012 obviously thats a long way away. Obama hasn't exactly impressed me and Joe Biden is an idiot. Why Hillary isn't the VP is beyond me. But im telling you right now if the race in 2012 were held today and it was between Obama and the former half term Governor of Alaska, i would definitely vote Obama.
Very well put . Ditto to namkcuR's post as well.

I honestly don't know how I feel about the bailout stuff. Of course, I'm insanely pissed off when I hear about CEOs continuing to get bonuses and live their luxury lifestyles instead of being fired or sent to jail for any wrongdoings any of them may have committed in relation to this whole mess. No argument with the Tea Party folks on that aspect of it all, that is a valid complaint worth bringing up. But aside from that issue, I really don't know where to stand. I think, for one thing, it's too soon to tell just how well they'll work out, I imagine the effects of them will take some time to unfold. And for another, since both Bush and Obama supported them, all you wind up getting is typical partisan crap-"Well, it was wrong when Bush did it, but it was okay when Obama did it", or vice versa, and nobody ever bothers to discuss the bailouts themselves, their good and bad points.

Like I've said before, the Tea Party people may have some legitimate concerns about our financial future, but of course, all we see on the news is the lunatic fringe with the racist signs and the Hitler comparisons and shouting that Obama's a socialist or a communist with nary an understanding of what either one of those words, those concepts mean. And that's not fair, because those that may have the kind of logical, rational critiques that Sean pointed out that he wants to hear from said crowd inevitably get drowned out.

Angela
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:19 AM   #258
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My issue with the oppositon to Obama is that it is very simplistic and emotional rather than logical and rational.
I have no issue with anyone who has logical and rational opposition to Obama and I have some of my own. I think you're supposed to or you're really not paying attention or doing your part.

For me it just gets all kinds of crazy when they take things he does and twist them into these paranoid wild theories and some people just buy into those without critical thinking. I was reading on a Nook yesterday about that book that's out by that David Limbaugh guy about how Obama's is the most destructive administration in our history and how all of these things he's doing are part of some sort of preexisting plan he had to purposefully mislead us and to carry out his master plan. Where is the evidence? It's all kinds of spaghetti being thrown against a wall and it does seem to be sticking.

I often wonder what it would be like now if Hillary Clinton had won and if these same people would be doing the same things to her even if she handled things completely differently. Is it really about Obama?
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Old 09-19-2010, 02:13 PM   #259
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I think if the Republicans had a strong 2012 candidate hidden away somewhere we would have spied them by now.

Who do they have? Jindal? Chuckles Huckabee? Fudge Packin' Mitt? And of course, you know how bad the Republicans are when Palin is seriously being floated in the media as a 2012 nominee.

As bad as the Democrats are currently during the midterms, the Tea Party nutjobs are a huge problem for the Republicans. You have Karl Rove calling out O'Donnell publically as the wrong direction, and the wingnut wing led by Palin calling him out.

There's enough popular ferver to throw the Dems out of the White House, and the ultimate cruel joke for the right is that there's no one to put it behind. The Republican party is at the mercy of two bimbos as of today, the RNC is a disaster, and unless they can get their house in order in 2011 they have no shot at even making the next election close.
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Old 09-19-2010, 03:11 PM   #260
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I think the difference is that in the Democratic party those divisions would persist, but while there's some momentary conflict among Republicans right now, they're going to consolidate sooner or later to have a more unified narrative. After O'Donnell got elected, Republican party members were saying she'd have to raise her own money. It took all of about 24 hours for them to go back on that.

And don't forget the remarkable ability of the Democrats to fuck up. Coons is only head of O'Donnell by 11 points according to the latest poll. When O'Donnell & Co inevitably start getting nasty against him, we'll see if he can weather the storm - even considering O'Donnell is gold mine of embarrassing statements and stances on the issues.
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Old 09-19-2010, 04:42 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
I have no issue with anyone who has logical and rational opposition to Obama and I have some of my own. I think you're supposed to or you're really not paying attention or doing your part.

For me it just gets all kinds of crazy when they take things he does and twist them into these paranoid wild theories and some people just buy into those without critical thinking. I was reading on a Nook yesterday about that book that's out by that David Limbaugh guy about how Obama's is the most destructive administration in our history and how all of these things he's doing are part of some sort of preexisting plan he had to purposefully mislead us and to carry out his master plan. Where is the evidence? It's all kinds of spaghetti being thrown against a wall and it does seem to be sticking.

I often wonder what it would be like now if Hillary Clinton had won and if these same people would be doing the same things to her even if she handled things completely differently. Is it really about Obama?

True, all that.

I listen to my conservative friends (and I have many. They are wonderful people and I would trust them with my life, just not my politics.) and they have drawn this line....whatever is on their side is wonderful and just brimming with integrity and grit and whatever is on the other side is dishonest and manipulative (not that I haven't seen some of that cloudy judgment on the other side either). It feels like of Stepfordy.

That creeps me out wherever I see it.
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Old 09-19-2010, 04:58 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
I honestly don't know how I feel about the bailout stuff. Of course, I'm insanely pissed off when I hear about CEOs continuing to get bonuses and live their luxury lifestyles instead of being fired or sent to jail for any wrongdoings any of them may have committed in relation to this whole mess.

Angela
Well, Richard Fuld will probably face civil if not criminal legal hassles for the rest of his life. There have been many cases of successful prosecutions in the US of former CEO's found to have engaged in malfeasance.


Most people have no idea of the level of commitment and sacrifice involved in running a large company. (the aforementioned Fuld, for example, use to arrive in the office at 5.30 a.m. pretty much every day of his career). Now, granted, Wall Street bonuses in recent years have been unseemly and excessive and there are issues around 'rewards for failure' in some banks. The banking bailouts started by Bush and continued by Obama stick in the craw and rightly so.
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Old 09-19-2010, 05:14 PM   #263
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Sorry, but I don't go along with this generalised and populist contempt for the boss class.
i guess it just boils down to greed at a time when a lot of people can't seem to make ends meet.

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Most people have no idea of the level of commitment and sacrifice involved in running a large company. (the aforementioned Fuld, for example, use to arrive in the office at 5.30 a.m. pretty much every day of his career).
While i don't exactly run a large company, i do arrive at my office around 0520 hours every morning. Granted i don't work as late as these guys do, but im pretty sure i don't make anywhere near the amount of money they do either.

I can tell you when i was in the Army, well i didn't really have an office back then, but i was on duty 24/7 subject to being called up and shipped out at any given time. My typical day usually started around 0530 back then and sometimes it never ended.

You are correct though these CEO's do put their heart and soul into running a company, with lots of sacrifice on their part and on the part of their families. Kind of like the military does, minus the lousy pay and all that combat zone stuff.
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Old 09-19-2010, 05:47 PM   #264
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I don't really have any problem with executives having huge salaries. There's a reason why the majority of them are there, favouritism or nepotism aside. Then again I don't really have a problem with pro sports salaries either.
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:18 PM   #265
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MrsSpringsteen hit it right on the head. There's this crazy fear around Obama that I really do not understand. I truly do not think he is out to corrupt our country's souls or bring us to the firey pits of hell or whatever it is some people think he's going to do. Hell, I wasn't even scared of Bush. Bush just made me sad (Cheney and Rumsfeld and the like, on the other hand, now that's a different story). And speaking as somebody who did vote for Obama, it's just insulting my intelligence, it's like these people think I and others who voted for him are stupid and just don't see the evil lurking in him. I mean, yeah, I tend to be more trusting of people than I probably should be, but I'd also like to think I'm a fairly good judge of character.

It never ceases to amaze me how the Democrats can constantly lose to such characters as O'Donnell or Palin or the like. You would think it'd be a complete cakewalk for them, but somehow, they manage to fumble it up. "Stepfordy" is the right word-hell, a lot of the people in the Republican Party even LOOK the part. Caked-on makeup (why does it always seem the women who are all super-Christ-y also wear way more makeup than is necessary?), plastered creepy smiles, the men look like the guys in those Extenze commercials...it's really unsettling.

(Speaking of crazy, by the way, so I've been seeing clips of the one guy who was recently running-his name escapes me now, buthe's ranting and screaming at the crowd and getting all in a frenzy and whatnot over why he was running. And I watch him and think, "So...he's perfectly okay, but Howard Dean let out a little yell at the end of a speech in 2004 in Iowa and everyone freaked out about that?")

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Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
Well, Richard Fuld will probably face civil if not criminal legal hassles for the rest of his life. There have been many cases of successful prosecutions in the US of former CEO's found to have engaged in malfeasance.
Good. I hope that continues to be the case.

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Most people have no idea of the level of commitment and sacrifice involved in running a large company. (the aforementioned Fuld, for example, use to arrive in the office at 5.30 a.m. pretty much every day of his career). Now, granted, Wall Street bonuses in recent years have been unseemly and excessive and there are issues around 'rewards for failure' in some banks. The banking bailouts started by Bush and continued by Obama stick in the craw and rightly so.
Exactly. Like I've said before, if somebody has honestly and legitmately earned their keep and made a good living as a result, I'm fine with that. I have no issue with that.

But right now it just seems incompetence and corruption get praise and reward, and it's just infuriating to people. Especially when the money they scammed people out of could be put to better use, helping companies and people who genuinely could use it. And I do think it wouldn't kill the rich to share a little of their extra money every now and again. It's just the nice, decent thing to do.

But you are absolutely right, I imagine there is a lot that goes into running such a business. And that's why I'm torn. On the one hand, I don't want those who helped aid in the crisis to be rewarded, but on the other hand, the business itself may not be a bad business, it just unfortunately had some bad workers at its helm, so I don't know if we should necessarily throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. And there were some workers who were responsible and honest, and they shouldn't be punished for the actions of those who were crooks.

So yeah. It's very confusing.

Angela
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:41 PM   #266
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MrsSpringsteen hit it right on the head. There's this crazy fear around Obama that I really do not understand. I truly do not think he is out to corrupt our country's souls or bring us to the firey pits of hell or whatever it is some people think he's going to do.
He's black.

I don't always agree with Bill Maher, but he is exactly on point in this segment.

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Old 09-20-2010, 05:21 AM   #267
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It’s not simple racism. I don’t think it’s all about racism, but that absolutely is the fuel on the fire.
  • A genuine concern/fear/anger over government spending is absolutely understandable and real and okay, and you have to believe would likely exist regardless of who is President (especially if they are a Democrat).
  • Alongside that, this dawning of a realisation that the GOP establishment has been whipping up the base for years (decades) over social and cultural issues that it actually has no belief in, and no interest in addressing, is something that was surely going to come home to roost at some point in time. The GOP have been asking for this ‘insurgency’, IMO, for a long, long time. It’s entirely their own fault for playing their base for idiots for so long.

But you can’t tell me it wouldn’t be hitting these charged heights if Obama were white, or if simply it were Clinton that had won, all the way through. There might still have been a ‘Tea Party’ type movement based around reigning in government spending and reach, and if she’d tried again on healthcare, there no doubt would have been a somewhat similar reaction to that as well. There would definitely still be anger, probably still quite a charged environment, especially if it were a Clinton in power – quite the lightning rod for conservative hatred. But would there be all of this “Take America Back”, “Restoring Honour” bullshit, and screaming of socialist, Marxist, Hitler, tyranny, ‘evil’ taking over the country etc? Of course not.

And when you turn around and call one of these people a racist, they probably genuinely don’t feel that they are, in any simple “I don’t like black people” sense. But most of this – the acceptance and belief in people as moronic as Palin/Beck, an unfocussed outrage at and fear of anything government, the whole ridiculous ‘elitist’ thing, the over-reaction to everything (e.g. healthcare) as if its all some larger evil plot – is all absolutely born of an isolated ignorance, and a part of that with Obama as President is absolutely a deep discomfort with a black guy running the show. Definitely.

There is absolutely an element to their “what has gone wrong” argument and rage that doesn’t add up in any logical way. There’s the logical (spending, deficit etc), then this massive “?” gap between it and the extreme fear and rage. It has nothing to do with government spending, nothing to do with taxation, nothing to do with their own disappointment with the GOP – it has to have everything to do with an irrational inability to accept there’s a black guy in the Oval Office. Flip it to President Hillary Clinton, but leave everything else – bailouts, massive deficit, healthcare etc – the same. The real white hot end of the rage wouldn’t exist, would it? There’d be no argument about some fundamental change in America. No questioning of her - who is she, where is she really from, what is she really all about. No raging belief that she’s a secret angry extremist from somewhere else sent to destroy them all. It’s absolutely because he’s black. It’s absolutely racism.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:08 PM   #268
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I often wonder what it would be like now if Hillary Clinton had won and if these same people would be doing the same things to her even if she handled things completely differently. Is it really about Obama?

I remember Bill Clintons 8 years very well.

The GOP were like rabid attack dogs the whole time.
He seemed to be better equipped to handle it than Obama is, it may just come down to an experience thing.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:13 PM   #269
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My issue with the oppositon to Obama is that it is very simplistic and emotional rather than logical and rational.


and, in large part, it's an expression of non-urban white identity.
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:21 AM   #270
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I have to say I am surprised at the collapse of support for Obama.

and in all likelihood, the big hit the Dems will take in the Nov elections
I'm not. Here are a couple reasons:

McCain was a weak candidate
. When push came to shove, and independent voters and reluctant rural voters saw what a mess his campaign was in '08, they voted for Obama with no better choice. Now in 2010, many of those voters have no problem going after him.

The groundswell of young voter support for Obama was only there for the election. I'm 23; my generation is lazy. They're the kind of people who will turn out for the election when whipped up into action, but will not follow the "important" side of politics during the actual term. The recent Supreme Court decision on corporations and campaign finance is huge, but I doubt many voters my age are aware of it or care, when it is in fact one of the biggest things to happen in US politics in the 00s. Young voters will only return to polling stations with additional ID about 30% of the time to make sure a provisional ballot of theirs is actually counted. Lazy lazy lazy. Midterm elections are boring.

The Healthcare debate
. The Democrats unfortunately tried to play nice and do things in a bi-partisan fashion in the early-going, and they were utterly destroyed by the GOP's doom-and-gloom PR machine. Yes, it's very ironic seinor citizens will rail against Socialist Nazi Pig Obamacare while cashing their Social Security cheques and waiting for the volunteer Fire Department to come put out their house fires, but the Democrats let the Republicans take control of the debate over a long, hot summer, and it dragged out and got ugly. The healthcare debate was framed in a "big government" kind of way and not a "we need to do this so we don't go broke personally and as a nation" kind of way. I'm amazed the Dems didn't manage to appeal to the average American's pocketbook, when at the end of the day that is a more effective strategy than appealing to his regard for his fellow man.

~

The Democrats' ability to play meek underdogs and then completely squander a majority is still amazing. If they had half the PR capability of the GOP, the country would be on a better path today.

They were pussies during Iraq's early days, they were pussies when it all fell apart, and they were pussies in the administration-defining healthcare debate, with reps worrying about their own asses during the midterms that have now arrived.
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