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Old 06-23-2010, 03:04 PM   #946
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
of course, we could expect that "someone" to actually be mature and do the same we ask of of others -- you know, use the Ignore feature, maybe not derail the thread -- but that would be expecting too much apparently.
LOL, who do you want me to ignore?
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:06 PM   #947
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really? what kind of non-utopian fabulist world do you live in where the US doesn't have endless amounts of blood-and-treasure to spend fixing all the bad places in the world?

)
Does it ever occur to you that there are cost and consequences to pre-maturely pulling out of Afghanistan that will involve the blood and treasure of the United States and other countries?
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:30 PM   #948
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Joe Klein is one of the most biased journalist out there.


You don't address corruption in the Karzai government by pulling out coalition troops from Afghanistan.
I'm not necessarily suggesting we should pull out coalition troops, my previous statement notwithstanding. And neither was. .(let me check). . yup, neither was The Most Biased Journalist in America.

In other words, my musings on whether we can nation build is NOT a cloak for what you seem to perceive as my "true liberal" desire to just leave Aghanistan as soon as posible.
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:48 PM   #949
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Oh, brother...*Puts head in hand, sighs*

Sticking on the main topic:

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Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
McChrystal needs to go.

The honourable thing to do would be to resign.

Hopefully Obama has the cohones to fire his ass.
Looks like he does...

Obama relieves McChrystal of command - Military- msnbc.com

Angela
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:10 PM   #950
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What's the fuss, Afghans ask about McChrystal controversy

Kabul, Afghanistan (CNN) -- Washington may be up in arms over General Stanley McChrystal's comments to Rolling Stone magazine about the U.S. mission in Afghanistan and how some of his colleagues are handling it -- but some in Afghanistan are asking what the fuss is all about.

McChrystal arrived in Afghanistan last summer as the top NATO commander -- but if Washington is mad at the general, his friends in Afghanistan seem to be unaffected.

Many among the local population in Kabul say that McChrystal revamped the forgotten war, putting it on a different path and instilling a counter-insurgency strategy (COIN) in an attempt to regain the trust of the Afghan people.

He instilled a new hope, they argue, for those Afghans who actually backed the war effort, also angering the Taliban -- which ramped up their PR -- in the battle for hearts and minds.

President Hamid Karzai has vocally expressed his support for General McChrystal and called him the "best" commander for the war in Afghanistan, according to his spokesman Waheed Omar.

He added that McChrystal is a man of great integrity who understands the Afghan people and their culture and that Karzai hopes president Barack Obama will not replace the commanding general with someone else.

McChrystal and Karzai have built a strong relationship in the year he has been in Afghanistan, flying to districts and provinces in order to gain the support of villagers while showing a united front.

He hasn't just been sitting around NATO headquarters barking orders say local officials - he's been going out in the field, meeting with soldiers and most importantly meeting with Afghans. General Mohammad Zahir Azimi, the spokesman for the Afghan defense ministry, explained that McChrystal's knowledge of Afghanistan stems from his discussions with Afghans.

He stated that McChrystal is a frequent attendee at village council meetings -- known as "shuras" -- throughout the country, where he listens to their problems, concerns and needs.

But McChrystal's tactical directive that restricts NATO forces on the ground from attacking enemy forces without having proof that they are militants has angered many soldiers.

Many feel that their own lives are put in greater danger because of it. While for Afghans, it means less of a chance of civilian casualties - a sore issue that has caused friction in the Afghan - NATO relationship.

"For Afghans it was very important that after a civilian was killed he would apologize on behalf of his people and his military," said Abdul Ghani, a 65-year-old businessman who was a former government official during the Taliban regime from 1996 through 2001.

"This showed that he was supporting the locals and he was trying to avoid a long-term fight and avoid civilians being killed." Speaking through his salt and pepper beard, Ghani credits NATO's involvement, and particularly McChrystal, for bringing security and allowing him to run his business and make a living.

"He made a mistake and he used poor judgment in criticizing US officials," Ghani said "but it is normal and everyone makes mistakes."

But Ghani's optimism about McChrystal stems mostly from his pessimism at past international leaders. He believes McChrystal has been the best one so far.

"We are satisfied with Mr. McChrystal and we hope he will not repeat the bitter experiences of the past," Ghani said.

The Ministry of Defense, which is being pushed by the U.S. and NATO to add more troops to their arsenal, is also standing behind McChrystal.

"Since the arrival of General McChrystal to Afghanistan many of our problems have been solved," ministry spokesman Azimi told CNN, "including problems with civilian casualties, unlawful detentions. He has also improved the coordination between Afghan and international forces on and off the battlefield."


By focusing on building infrastructure and civilian issues, Azimi adds, McChrystal has been able to win back some Afghan support.

But with the firestorm in the United States, the Afghan voices are being muffled again.
What's the fuss, Afghans ask about McChrystal controversy - CNN.com


In a society like Afghanistan, personal relationships are important and difficult to build. The sudden replacement of McChrystal and his staff will indeed cause some disruption and confusion at a very important time in the conflict.
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:14 PM   #951
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
I'm not necessarily suggesting we should pull out coalition troops, my previous statement notwithstanding. And neither was. .(let me check). . yup, neither was The Most Biased Journalist in America.

In other words, my musings on whether we can nation build is NOT a cloak for what you seem to perceive as my "true liberal" desire to just leave Aghanistan as soon as posible.
Well, then please clearly state your plan for Afganistan that apparently does not involve any sort of nation building(if thats correct) and explain why it would work? How many US troops on the ground would it involve? What would be their objectives? What is Joe Klein's plan by the way?
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Old 06-23-2010, 04:33 PM   #952
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What's the fuss, Afghans ask about McChrystal controversy - CNN.com


In a society like Afghanistan, personal relationships are important and difficult to build. The sudden replacement of McChrystal and his staff will indeed cause some disruption and confusion at a very important time in the conflict.

really

are you suggesting that he should not have resigned or that you think he is a jackass for his behavior?

don't you think Petreaus, is a great pick, and capable of the task?




Obama didn't fire him, he more took himself out.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:07 PM   #953
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Well, then please clearly state your plan for Afganistan that apparently does not involve any sort of nation building(if thats correct) and explain why it would work? How many US troops on the ground would it involve? What would be their objectives? What is Joe Klein's plan by the way?
**SIGH***

I don't have a plan for Afghanistan. I was merely musing back there. Geez.

As for Joe Klein, his article was pretty inconclusive too, though you're welcome to judge for yourself. I'm sure you can find it on Time.com or on your local newstand if it interests you that much.
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:22 PM   #954
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:30 PM   #955
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Old 06-23-2010, 05:49 PM   #956
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
really

are you suggesting that he should not have resigned or that you think he is a jackass for his behavior?

don't you think Petreaus, is a great pick, and capable of the task?




Obama didn't fire him, he more took himself out.
I don't think someone who has played a vital role in protecting the lives of United States citizens should be dismissed from his job because a liberal magazine was able to qoute him saying a couple of words that were disrespectful to the VP.

There is far more at stake here than simply the appearance of disrespect or insubordination. Truman fired McAuthor because he specifically and openly challenged the Presidents policy. Mycrystal did not do that. Mycrystal supports and is implementing the Presidents policy and a mistake of a couple of words should not remove him from a job where his leadership and experience are very important.

Petreaus is Mycrystals boss and so naturally would be a top pick for the job in order to maintain continuity. He is indeed one of the top if not the top experts on counterinsurgency and nationbuilding which is why he was promoted to command CENTCOM which controls US military operations in both IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN. Now Petreaus will step down from that role to focus exclusively on Afghanistan. Even though you could argue that Petreaus is the better overall leader, there will still be some level of disruption involved in the transition.

In addition, removing Mycrystals from Afghanistan removes the leader with the most experience and success in catching specific terrorist leaders.



Oh, and being allowed to resign from a position is often a nice way of letting people go, aka firing them.

Again, there is so much more at stake here than a couple of words in a magazine.
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:06 PM   #957
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I don't think someone who has played a vital role in protecting the lives of United States citizens should be dismissed from his job because a liberal magazine was able to qoute him saying a couple of words that were disrespectful to the VP.

.

I am still reading up on all this.

I think it may be a bit more than a couple of words, as you describe it.

Why did he even accept the interview with RS?

And after agreeing to do it, he should have realized the readership would be comprised of mostly young people, A lot of his enlisted men and potential recruits. With that in mind he showed very poor judgement, or just a complete lack of respect for the Commander in Chief, and let's keep in mind, the V P is a member of the executive, aka Commander in Chief.
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:14 PM   #958
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An NCO recognizes a flawed Afghanistan strategy - George Will washingtonpost.com

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Torrents of uninteresting mail inundate members of Congress, but occasionally there are riveting communications, such as a recent e-mail from a noncommissioned officer (NCO) serving in Afghanistan. He explains why the rules of engagement for U.S. troops are "too prohibitive for coalition forces to achieve sustained tactical successes."

Receiving mortar fire during an overnight mission, his unit called for a 155mm howitzer illumination round to be fired to reveal the enemy's location. The request was rejected "on the grounds that it may cause collateral damage." The NCO says that the only thing that comes down from an illumination round is a canister, and the likelihood of it hitting someone or something was akin to that of being struck by lightning.

Returning from a mission, his unit took casualties from an improvised explosive device that the unit knew had been placed no more than an hour earlier. "There were villagers laughing at the U.S. casualties" and "two suspicious individuals were seen fleeing the scene and entering a home." U.S. forces "are no longer allowed to search homes without Afghan National Security Forces personnel present." But when his unit asked Afghan police to search the house, the police refused on the grounds that the people in the house "are good people."

On another mission, some Afghan adults ran off with their children immediately before the NCO's unit came under heavy small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), and the unit asked for artillery fire on the enemy position. The response was a question: Where is the nearest civilian structure? "Judging distances," the NCO writes dryly, "can be difficult when bullets and RPGs are flying over your head." When the artillery support was denied because of fear of collateral damage, the unit asked for a "smoke mission" -- like an illumination round; only the canister falls to earth -- "to conceal our movement as we planned to flank and destroy the enemy." This request was granted -- but because of fear of collateral damage, the round was deliberately fired one kilometer off the requested site, making "the smoke mission useless and leaving us to fend for ourselves."
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:03 PM   #959
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Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
There is far more at stake here than simply the appearance of disrespect or insubordination. Truman fired McAuthor because he specifically and openly challenged the Presidents policy. Mycrystal did not do that. Mycrystal supports and is implementing the Presidents policy and a mistake of a couple of words should not remove him from a job where his leadership and experience are very important.
Whether I agree with the General and his staff, or not....

he left the president with little choice here. Too bad all around
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:16 PM   #960
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don't you think Petreaus, is a great pick, and capable of the task?
On that point, I will say this bit I saw in one of the many articles on this issue is one thing that bothers me a little (or a lot):

Quote:
In the hearing last week, Petraeus told Congress he would recommend delaying Obama's prescribed pullout of U.S. forces from Afghanistan beginning in July 2011. He said security and political conditions in Afghanistan must be ready to handle a U.S. drawdown.
...can someone please tell me exactly how long we are going to wait for that to happen? And would we actually truly completely leave if and when it does?

We're never getting out of there fully, are we? We're just gonna keep paying to funnel this war that isn't working anymore (if it ever really did). Hooray.

Angela
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