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Old 06-22-2010, 09:31 PM   #916
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Yep, it's important to continually show the world exactly how unprepared Bush really was.

I like that you and I are agreeing as of late.
Unlike Bill Clinton, Bush removed the Taliban from power and started policies in combating terrorism that have been far more successful than anything done during the Clinton administration.
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:41 PM   #917
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He just walked into that one, didn't he!
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:46 PM   #918
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Unlike Bill Clinton, Bush removed the Taliban from power and started policies in combating terrorism that have been far more successful than anything done during the Clinton administration.
Blah, blah, blah...

It still doesn't erase the fact that the administration was not prepared for the two wars... We wouldn't be in the position we are if we were.
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:55 PM   #919
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Afghanistan and Iraq are in bad shape because the Bush Administration never set them up in a way that they would succeed. Iraq it just terrible, it is worse off now, in terms of quality of life for the Iraqi people, then before the U S invasion and occupation.
The Standard of living in Iraq today based on known data for education, life expectancy, and GDP per capita from the United Nations Human Development Report and the CIA World Fact Book, gives Iraq a current standard of living ahead of a country like Morocco and soon to pass countries like Egypt and Syria.

Over the past year in Iraq, the murder rate in Iraq has at times been lower than the murder rate in the United States.

Iraq today has the opportunity to finally grow into the prosperous country it could have been, if Saddam had not been the ruler of the country for 24 years during which he invaded and attacked unprovoked four different countries, used WMD more than any other leader in history, which lead to millions of dead and wounded, slaughtered, tortured, and murdered all the serious active opposition to his rule as well as those simply suspected of opposition.

Yes, there are not as many of the random bombings that you have today thanks to a massive state security organization that randomly imprisoned, tortured, and murdered the population as well as members of the government and military that Saddam would suddenly decide needed to go.

Yes, there was electricity, running water, plenty of food, all day every day, that is if you lived in Sunni tribal area's important to Saddam's power base. Life was far different in Kurdish or Shia majority area's as well as for Sunni's not apart of Saddam's power base.

While Iraqi's do not like the conditions that currently prevail today despite improvements in past years, the vast majority of Iraqi's NEVER want to return to the reign of terror and hell that was life under Saddam. Those that do are typically the minority that did benefit to a degree from life under Saddam.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:10 PM   #920
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Blah, blah, blah...


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It still doesn't erase the fact that the administration was not prepared for the two wars... We wouldn't be in the position we are if we were.
Mistakes have been made in both conflicts that have made them more difficult. But there are definitely no short cuts around the difficulty involved in building a relatively stable country with a security structure strong enough that foreign military forces are no longer needed in the country to help provide security. Mistake free nation building plans would still involve years of what has been seen already.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:28 PM   #921
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Great post!

Its out there for those looking for it.

I know he has a bias, he's the Democratic Vice President, but I just finished Joe Biden's book today(I started it in Sept 2008, long story, but life has been difficult since then and I haven't got back around to it until recently). As the then- Chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the man has amazing insight and inside information that he shares regarding the situation in Afghanistan in 2001. He, Lugar(R-IN) and Hagel(R-NEB) continually pressed Bush for more troops and reconstruction money for Afghanistan in late 2001 and early 2002 only to be told "we're done, the Taliban is gone, no need for a commitment, if they come back, we'll just drain the swamp."

Well, that has just worked out great, hasn't it?

He chronicles very well, through recounting details of personal conversations with Colin Powell, just how deep the divide was between Powell and Cheney/Rumsfeld. Say what you want about Biden, but he was one of a few people in a position to see up close the inner workings of the Bush administration from a critical perspective when they were making the worst of their foreign policy decisions.
LOL, Biden was up there a fraction of the time that Powell and Gates were, both of whom, to this day, support the Presidents decisions to remove Saddam as well as surge troops in Iraq. Both have acknowledged mistakes, but certainly do not share Bidens current views on the major issues back then. Biden TODAY may think removing Saddam was a mistake(at the time he voted to remove him), but Bush, Blair, Powell, Gates, Rice, Cheney, and Rumsfeld still agree to this day that removing Saddam was the right course of action.


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Biden also warned Bush that if we don't commit to helping Karzai build a strong government now and live up to our promises the Afghan people, they will turn against us, as will Karzai in order to maintain public support. Well, that 2002 prediction turned out to be right on the mark! Karzai is obviously not a boy scout, but what governing prospect in Afghanistan would be? The anti US bullshit, the threats to join the Taliban, etc, are simply realpolitik and and come to us as a reaction to our abandonment of the entire country until very recently.

You don't have to support or oppose Obama's Afghan policy to see that Bush left him, like he did with so many other situations, a real, real mess.

Biden also says in his book that history will judge Bush harshly not because of mistakes he made(we all make those, if anyone knows that, its Joe himself, lol!!) but because of opportunities he missed.
There indeed were accomplishments under Bush in Afghanistan. The Taliban were removed from power. NATO launched its first joint military operation outside of Europe. By the time Obama became President there was a democratically elected Afghan government, an Afghan military, and over 20,000 non-US NATO troops in the country. Bush increased the number of US troops in Afghanistan every year that he was President. Afghanistan was never abandoned.

Afghanistan was handicapped by conditions in Pakistan that allowed the Taliban to take refuge and rebuild.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:38 PM   #922
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iraq is vastly worse off today than it was in march 2003. how anyone can possibly argue otherwise is beyond me.
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:47 PM   #923
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Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza are NOT Israeli citizens. Israel has not annexed the West Bank and Gaza either.
Read the article again.

No one said they were Israeli citizens.

Israel has not annexed the West Bank and Gaza?


Let us know when you find a place called the real world.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:40 PM   #924
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LOL, Biden was up there a fraction of the time that Powell and Gates were, both of whom, to this day, support the Presidents decisions to remove Saddam as well as surge troops in Iraq. Both have acknowledged mistakes, but certainly do not share Bidens current views on the major issues back then. Biden TODAY may think removing Saddam was a mistake(at the time he voted to remove him), but Bush, Blair, Powell, Gates, Rice, Cheney, and Rumsfeld still agree to this day that removing Saddam was the right course of action.




There indeed were accomplishments under Bush in Afghanistan. The Taliban were removed from power. NATO launched its first joint military operation outside of Europe. By the time Obama became President there was a democratically elected Afghan government, an Afghan military, and over 20,000 non-US NATO troops in the country. Bush increased the number of US troops in Afghanistan every year that he was President. Afghanistan was never abandoned.

Afghanistan was handicapped by conditions in Pakistan that allowed the Taliban to take refuge and rebuild.
Sting, Powell was against the invasion, he said so many times in private conversations, resigned in 2005 and then publicly endorsed Obama, an Iraq war opponent.

He opposed the war: Powell tried to talk Bush out of war - Times Online

He opposed the surge:

Powell: We Are Losing In Iraq - Face The Nation - CBS News

And the Taliban in Afghanistan are back and back very strong, so obviously the initial policy and the entire Bush policy was inadequate:

2007:Taliban control half of Afghanistan, says report - Telegraph

2009:Taliban Control Spreads in Afghanistan | News | English

And Bush had nowhere near enough focus and priority on Afghanistan during his Presidency:

War in Afghanistan: US Redirection of Forces to Iraq

And Iraq is nowhere near as rosy as you say it was:

Nation & World | Surge in Iraq violence leaves at least 27 dead | Seattle Times Newspaper

And Biden said he made a mistake in voting for a resolution that Bush asked for in bad faith and did not even abide by the terms of.

The resolution said Iraq had WMD, and we would forcibly remove said WMD should he fail to let the inspectors verify everything.

So anyone who voted for the resolution shouldn't even apologize, it was Bush who lied about the weapons and pulled out the inspectors that he promised to let do their work.

Eithe way, Biden admits a small mistake in trusting Bush, Bush can't bring himself to admit a COLOSSAL MISTAKE

Besides, Biden offered a separate resolution that narrowed the mission from regime change(which has produced chaos) to verifying that no WMD were present and made clear that all options were to be exhausted.

Don't come back with your Clinton video, that was 1998, before inspectors gave Iraq a clean bill of health in 1999. Clinton wanted to make sure they were verifiably done with the WMD program, and he did. Things changed, the situation was not the same in 1998 as it was in 2003. 1999-2003, Saddam had no weapons and guess what, Sting? The FACTS have proven this to be the case.

Saddam never had a nuclear weapon, and had chemical and biological weapons that were comprehensively destroyed starting in 1991. He never posed an imminent threat, or any kind of threat, to the United States. Also a fact.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:53 PM   #925
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Just go with the drones, airstrikes eh? Guess what, there was a time when this was indeed US policy in Afganistan. It was during the Clinton administration back in August 1998 and unfortunately remained US policy until September 11, 2001!

We did not have that little thing called 9/11 when Clinton was in office. Even the airstrikes and drones and other actions aimed at AQ were ridiculed by the GOP when Clinton employed them.

There would have been no public or political support for an invasion before 9.11.


But Clinton did not sit on his hands:

He tripled counterterrorism funding over the objection of the GOP congress, stopped many plots in their tracks(millenium, bojinka) and put 2 loaded naval aircraft carriers in the Indian Ocean aimed at Afghanistan. He then called up the Taliban and told them who would be held responsible for an attack. Then Bush recalled said carriers.


Clinton told the Bush team AQ was threat #1, Condi had never heard of them and Wolfowitz laughed in his face.



DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ANYONE IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WOULD HAVE INVADED AFGHANISTAN BEFORE 9/11?

He ignored numerous warnings specific to 9/11 and ignored AQ in general for 8 months.



Apples and oranges to say Bush invaded like a man and Clinton did drones like a sissy.

ONE WAS PRESIDENT BEFORE THE 1ST ATTACK ON OUR HOMELAND SINCE PEARL HARBOR AND ONE AFTER.

Please, Clinton or any President or Dennis Kucinich would have invaded Afghanistan after 9/11.

Edit: sorry to anyone who read this post before I edited it.

Thank you, Deep and Irvine for catching me.

You guys are smart, you guys were right, and thank you!!
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:07 AM   #926
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you realize that you just gave him exactly what he wants?
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:18 AM   #927
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you realize that you just gave him exactly what he wants?
Thank you and see edit.
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:25 AM   #928
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iraq is vastly worse off today than it was in march 2003. how anyone can possibly argue otherwise is beyond me.
No, no, no. You must never say that! Don't you know what will happen? And if "someone" decides to argue otherwise with you--trust me, just let it go! Quickest way to derail a thread I'm telling you!
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:47 AM   #929
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Ditto that. Please. Or I will cry.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:49 AM   #930
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No, no, no. You must never say that! Don't you know what will happen? And if "someone" decides to argue otherwise with you--trust me, just let it go! Quickest way to derail a thread I'm telling you!
if someone decides to reply they'll be writing a novel that i won't bother to read.
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