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Old 03-26-2010, 09:29 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Well for one thing, while the Reagan quote is something he actually said, the Obama quote is not.
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:00 PM   #602
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You remember the quotes, yet you don't actually remember the time...
Is that so? Here's a few things off the top of my head I remember. A little compare and contrast for ya.

Reagan's first act as president was to sign a freeze on the hiring of Federal civilian employees.

Memorandum Directing a Federal Employee Hiring Freeze

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I pledged that we would take this action as a first step towards controlling the growth and size of government and stopping the drain on the economy by the public sector.
Imposing a freeze now can eventually lead to a significant reduction in the size of the Federal work force. This begins the process of restoring our economic strength and returning the Nation to prosperity.
Now does that sound like anything Barack Obama would say? And actions. Well since Obama has taken office the number of federal government jobs has been increasing by 10,000 a month, (the new health care reform act sets aside a budget for more than 15,000 new IRS employees) and here is a USA Today article detailing that "federal workers earning six-figure salaries has exploded during the recession."

USATODAY.com

What else? The most frequent visitor to the White House during Obama's first year was Andy Stern, the president of the public-service workers union. Now I'm sure it's only a coincidence that 1/3 of last year’s $787 billion stimulus package was aid to state and local governments (and their union employees).

Reagan on the other hand fired more than 11,000 federal employee air traffic controllers who ignored his order to return to work in 1981. Could you imagine Obama breaking a union?

Obama wants a Cap & Trade scheme which will give government unprecedented control of both energy production and consumption. Reagan deregulated natural gas and lowered the Oil Windfall profits tax. And I'll give you a minute to google "deregulation" as you may not be familiar with the term.

Reagan: Across-the-board tax cuts during a recession. NO STIMULAS PACKAGE
Obama: Multiple stimulus bills and taxes are goin' up.

Reagan: Bipartisan support on bills which he had to have due to a Dem controlled House.
Obama: Zip

Reagan: Spoke over the press directly to the people including Reagan Democrats.
Obama: Slobbering love affair with the mainstream media sends the majority of Americans to "new media."
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:02 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
Well for one thing, while the Reagan quote is something he actually said, the Obama quote is not.
You're right and the cartoon contains no quotation marks. But actions speak louder than words so see my post to BVS.
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:22 PM   #604
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You're right and the cartoon contains no quotation marks.
surely you're taking the piss.
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:34 PM   #605
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surely you're taking the piss.
Were you captain of the debate team by chance?
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:37 PM   #606
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Were you captain of the debate team by chance?
no, i'd never have been able to keep a straight face if i were presented arguments like yours.
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Old 03-27-2010, 10:53 AM   #607
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Reagan increased government spending by 69%, Clinton only 32%, and Bush 68%

Why do Republicans always forget military spending as government spending? Healthcare and Military are both about saving and protecting lives...

But stick to your fantasy quotes.
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:01 AM   #608
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it's all ebbs and flows. we can all agree that it was the fanatical deregulation of everything that brought us to the economic crisis of 2008 and the near collapse of the economy, and that now, after 25 years of blaming government for everything, the pendulum is swinging the other way.

Obama believes in smart effective government, and in government being used as a tool to make people's lives better. to me, this seems far more reasonable than dogmatic assertions about the absolute evil of government, always and in all ways.

it's a tool. it can be good, it can be bad. there are certain things that only government has the organizational capacity to deal with. roads, schools, defense, and, yes, saving the economy when it needs it. we can absolutely have rational disagreements on which aspects of government are effective, or not, but i hardly think, INDY, you'd like to pave your own roads and be your own police force and fire department. and as the economic collapse of 2008 showed, Reaganomics (so to speak) has run it's course and it's now over and done with. it's a new era.

and then the pendulum will sing again. so on and soforth.
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Old 03-27-2010, 12:00 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Reagan increased government spending by 69%, Clinton only 32%, and Bush 68%

Why do Republicans always forget military spending as government spending? Healthcare and Military are both about saving and protecting lives...

But stick to your fantasy quotes.
You can actually find "provide for the common defence" in the Constitution, the preamble in fact. It's an obligation of the federal government. And Reagan ran on restoring our military might after a decade that began with Vietnam and ended with Jimmy Carter.

Federally mandated health care as a constitutionally written obligation... still looking for that one.

National security is a precondition to everything else the government undertakes. There is no Obamacare without security from foreign enemies. Which is gonna be a problem as we can't afford both.

Quote:
Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives
--Ronald Reagan
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Old 03-27-2010, 12:34 PM   #610
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we can all agree that it was the fanatical deregulation of everything that brought us to the economic crisis of 2008 and the near collapse of the economy
That's a real simplification. Some "fairness in lending" laws passed over the years by Congress contributed as well.
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, and that now, after 25 years of blaming government for everything, the pendulum is swinging the other way.
One would have to ignore polls, election results in VA, NJ and MA, the popularity of FoxNews, the Tea Party movement and the Democrats own -- over a year long struggle -- to pass health care reform and the failure of Cap & Trade despite huge majorities in Congress, to believe that. We are still a right-of-center country. And one with a large case of buyer' remorse right now.
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Obama believes in smart effective government, and in government being used as a tool to make people's lives better.
Exactly the problem. Obama believes government IS smarter and IS more effective than individuals or private enterprise. He really believes government is the answer to problems. It's his whole life, that's all he knows.
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we can absolutely have rational disagreements on which aspects of government are effective, or not, but i hardly think, INDY, you'd like to pave your own roads and be your own police force and fire department.
That's a strawman argument. I'm the spend piles of money on NASA guy, remember.
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it's a new era.
Man is not free unless government is limited.
--Ronald Reagan

You're right, we're not gonna hear anything like that from the White House for a few years
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Old 03-27-2010, 02:53 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post

Man is not free unless government is limited.
--Ronald Reagan

You're right, we're not gonna hear anything like that from the White House for a few years


and Reagan thought that medicare would turn us all into Bolsheviks.

i don't know if you think that Reagan is somehow an authority on how to be a good president, but putting him up as if he's Washington/Jefferson/Lincoln doesn't improve the actual quality of what Reagan said, or did, and i know that you probably want to put him on the $20 bill, but most people don't agree with you. i don't find Reagan quotes some sort of objective measure of truth, not sure why you post them as if they were.

further, the "popularity" of the tea party/Fox News/etc. -- though you have done a nice job illustrating the effective coordination of these elements of the right wing echo chamber -- isn't all that popular when you actually look at the big picture. there are 300m people in the US, and only about 2.5m of them will watch Hannity on any given night. is he more popular than, say, Maddow? sure. but it's all relative. and it doesn't come close to looking at, say, 53% of the vote and 365 electoral votes.

as for the politics of health care, major change is hard, and it comes at a cost. just look at Civil Rights. LBJ did the right thing, and lost the south, perhaps forever as racists and segregationists know they have a friend in the Republican Party. you'll also note that polling now shows that 49% of the public are happy with the health care bill, and please, go ahead and run on it's repeal, or, better, run on how the health care bill is bad politics. if that's your platform, good luck to you. and, lastly, the elections in NJ, MA, and VA all had one thing in common: an uncommonly weak Democrat. Corzine was as corrupt as they come. i live in VA, and Creigh Deeds was laughably bad. so was Martha Coakley. if you run centrist Republicans feeding off understandable anger about unemployment against pathetic virtual-incumbant Democrats, yes, absolutely the GOP is going to win. if you're taking these three races as anything more than that, i think you're going too far.

the truth of the matter, INDY, is that you're being an ideologue. there are certainly fundamental philosophical debates to be had over the role of government, but you're not offering them. you seem as interested in that as the GOP is in actually doing the hard work of governing.

is this Obama Derangement Syndrome?
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Old 03-27-2010, 02:54 PM   #612
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National security is a precondition to everything else the government undertakes. There is no Obamacare without security from foreign enemies. Which is gonna be a problem as we can't afford both.

so every dime spent on defense is a model of efficiency and necessity?

is that trillion-or-three spent in Iraq worth it?
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:17 PM   #613
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so every dime spent on defense is a model of efficiency and necessity?
Not always a model of efficiency, but it is indeed a necessity that is too often under resourced.


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is that trillion-or-three spent in Iraq worth it?
Actually its approaching 750 Billion dollars and will likely fall short of the Trillion that it has been falsely accused of costing for nearly 3 years now.

Given Saddam's history and track record, plus what has been in United States vital national security interest since at least the 1940s, it has been more than worth it.
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Old 03-27-2010, 04:43 PM   #614
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You can actually find "provide for the common defence" in the Constitution, the preamble in fact.
But starting a nuclear arms race as a means to "common defence" wasn't exactly what the founding fathers had in mind, in fact there were many constitutional lawyers that found it unconstitutional and reaching beyond the definition of defense. Just like there are those that are trying to do the same for healthcare.

But as you see, Reagan grew the government, so your dreamworld revisionist history is incorrect. And his actions cost us years and years later...

Quote:
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Federally mandated health care as a constitutionally written obligation... still looking for that one.
Just like you never found the definitions of cold wars in there either. At the time the founding fathers had slaves, so they owned human beings and providing for the least of their brothers was probably not high priority. And "healthcare" still consisted of using leeches as treatment. It's a living and breathing document, I know you hate to acklowledge that when it doesn't support YOUR platform, but someday you are going to have to be consistant.
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Old 03-27-2010, 05:09 PM   #615
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Obama makes 15 recess appointments, blames Republicans |

(sure blame the GOP, just because they do not support Marxist/ Socialism.)


this could and may just be the beginning of many 'recess' appointments


last week I looked for some, and did not find (m)any?

Bush made quite a few, and the Dems did not hold up his appointments near as much as GOP have been holding up Obama'a appointments.


I expect the Tea Partiers to do some real loud yelling and screaming about this.



Rep. Michele Bachman will probably say this has never been done by a President before.
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