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Old 12-12-2009, 02:54 PM   #241
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He was given a shit situation, in shit situations you're always damned if you do, damned if you don't...

That's what I think about it.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:04 PM   #242
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What is it that you would like to hear?
What you thought of the Presidents speeches on these issues?

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I find it easier to post when there's something I disagree with. If I agree with what's happening, I'm not inclined to comment.
Good point. So I guess we could say that the silence might mean FYM is strongly supportive of the Presidents policies on these issues. Perhaps Little San Francisco is turning into Little Missouri.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:06 PM   #243
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He was given a shit situation, in shit situations you're always damned if you do, damned if you don't...

That's what I think about it.
Do you support the Obama surge of 40,000 troops into Afghanistan over the next 6 months?
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Old 12-12-2009, 06:42 PM   #244
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What you thought of the Presidents speeches on these issues?



Good point. So I guess we could say that the silence might mean FYM is strongly supportive of the Presidents policies on these issues. Perhaps Little San Francisco is turning into Little Missouri.
The stereotyping is tiresome. I'd appreciate being considered an individual--one, incidentally, who has always been pretty clear about my support for the war in Afghanistan--rather than part of this "faceless liberal horde" you keep referring to on FYM. Really, I've found more nuance and divergent viewpoints among the so-called left-leaning posters here than I have among the handfull of conservatives.

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Do you support the Obama surge of 40,000 troops into Afghanistan over the next 6 months?
I do.
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Old 12-12-2009, 07:06 PM   #245
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Anyone here that was for the Iraq surge, and is against the Afghan surge? (like me?)
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:30 PM   #246
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The stereotyping is tiresome. I'd appreciate being considered an individual--one, incidentally, who has always been pretty clear about my support for the war in Afghanistan--rather than part of this "faceless liberal horde" you keep referring to on FYM..
I was not refering specifically to you, just to the forum in general. That this is a place that generally leans to the left, sometimes hard left, is not really disputed.


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Really, I've found more nuance and divergent viewpoints among the so-called left-leaning posters here than I have among the handfull of conservatives.
Well, that actually might just be because there is more of them and only a few conservatives.

I've seen threads opened where people discuss an issue and literally ever single person is on the same side of the debate. Just think how often that would happen if there were no right leaning posters in here.

I've also been in threads where I was literally the only person on the otherside of the debate. Trust me, these things are easier to see when your in the minority.

As a test of how objective and left leaning this place is, I'm thinking of starting a thread asking only non-Bush supporters what they liked about Bush's policies.

I can list policies by every President since World War II that I supported even if I did not vote for that President, but there are dozens in here that probably have never said one good thing about the Bush administration.
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:48 PM   #247
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Did they give the Heisman Trophy to Barack Obama tonight?
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Old 12-12-2009, 09:37 PM   #248
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Anyone here that was for the Iraq surge, and is against the Afghan surge? (like me?)
Interesting. Why do you oppose this surge?
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Old 12-13-2009, 12:38 AM   #249
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Really? I only bring this up because its rather unusual for this place.
I don't think you got the point of my post.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:48 AM   #250
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but there are dozens in here that probably have never said one good thing about the Bush administration.
And most are not about to start now by acknowledging that Obama's foreign policy is a virtual continuation of the Bush doctrine. They will simply continue to blame Bush.

A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. Just more deceiving.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:01 AM   #251
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Interesting. Why do you oppose this surge?
First off I'm never going to say the U.S. military "can't" do it, but here's why the Afghan surge is different than Iraq. The mountain terrain isn't an advantageous place for the U.S. to fight. The Taliban and any Al Qaeda can simply retreat deeper into Pakistan if things get too hot and wait us out. The Afghan population is scattered all over the place, making it hard to clear and hold an area.

Culturally the Taliban are not going away soon, they live there. The country lacks the infrastructure, educated population, and natural resources for a decent economy. Their only cash crop is an illegal substance!

It will take six months for the troop build-up, and the president has given them a year or so before beginning some kind of draw down. It's not enough time to fix these problems and I question if any amount of time could fix them. Other than that, it's a great candidate for nation-building
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:49 AM   #252
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And most are not about to start now by acknowledging that Obama's foreign policy is a virtual continuation of the Bush doctrine. They will simply continue to blame Bush.

A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. Just more deceiving.
I've already stated that during the presidential campaign, I disagreed with the arbitrary troop pull-out dates, and I hoped that once Obama was elected, he'd use intelligence and critical thinking capabilities to adjust his plan as needed. He didn't disappoint me. He's cleaning up Bush's mess, just like he should.

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First off I'm never going to say the U.S. military "can't" do it, but here's why the Afghan surge is different than Iraq. The mountain terrain isn't an advantageous place for the U.S. to fight. The Taliban and any Al Qaeda can simply retreat deeper into Pakistan if things get too hot and wait us out. The Afghan population is scattered all over the place, making it hard to clear and hold an area.

Culturally the Taliban are not going away soon, they live there. The country lacks the infrastructure, educated population, and natural resources for a decent economy. Their only cash crop is an illegal substance!

It will take six months for the troop build-up, and the president has given them a year or so before beginning some kind of draw down. It's not enough time to fix these problems and I question if any amount of time could fix them. Other than that, it's a great candidate for nation-building
You bring up some very good points. But what is the alternative? Just give up?
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Old 12-13-2009, 03:57 PM   #253
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The mountain terrain isn't an advantageous place for the U.S. to fight.
True, but the majority of the population live in area's that are relatively lower in elevation than much of the terrain along the border with Pakistan. The provinces with the most coalition casualties, Helmand and Kandahar, are actually relatively flat compared to the rest of Afghanistan.

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The Taliban and any Al Qaeda can simply retreat deeper into Pakistan if things get too hot and wait us out.
The Pakistani military has been very active in 2009 in finding, killing and capturing Taliban in the tribal area's of Pakistan. The tribal area's of Pakistan are not the "safe area's" that they once were.

The focus of the surge is to protect and build the strength of the Afghan population, pursuing the Taliban and Al Quada is secondary to that. If large elements do attempt to hide in Pakistan, it will only make this key part of the surge easier for the coalition.

Even if this was a serious option for the Taliban, waiting out the coalition would only mean that they would then be facing a credible Afghan military and police force supported by the population once they returned.

The insurgency cannot succeed and thrive without the population. Hiding in Pakistan in a sense is self-defeating provided the coalition is able to build the Afghan population up enough to support and defense itself.

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The Afghan population is scattered all over the place, making it hard to clear and hold an area.
This is true and is also a key difference with Iraq. But provided the goal of building an Afghan security force of 400,000 military and police is achieved, it can eventually be done. The Surge will be working on the main population area's not every single little villiage. As the main population area's become more secure and sustainable development is achieved, the mission can then be moved and expanded to the less populated area's of the country.

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Culturally the Taliban are not going away soon, they live there.
True, but the same could be said for any insurgency in history.

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The country lacks the infrastructure, educated population, and natural resources for a decent economy. Their only cash crop is an illegal substance!
True, but much of the same things could be said about Pakistan although not to the degree of Afghanistan, yet Pakistan is considered to be a functioning country with a government and security force strong and stable enough to deal with its internal problems, without the need for foreign troops to be deployed there to help the situation. As distasteful as it might sound, getting Afghanistan to the level of where Pakistan is today would be a huge victory. It would mean that Afghanistan would have a government and military that could largely provide for and defend its people without the need of foreign troops on the ground there.

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It will take six months for the troop build-up, and the president has given them a year or so before beginning some kind of draw down. It's not enough time to fix these problems and I question if any amount of time could fix them. Other than that, it's a great candidate for nation-building
Six months is just as fast as the Iraq surge, and it will actually be very difficult to meet that deadline given the much more difficult logistical requirments for supplying and deploying troops to Afghanistan as opposed to Iraq.

There is a goal to start withdrawing some troops 18 months from now, but that goal can be pushed back. Any withdrawal should be based on conditions on the ground, not some arbitrary deadline at this point. 18 months is clearly not enough to do and fix everything, but much can be accomplished in that time.

Provided enough time and resources, there is no country or culture that is immune to the effects of security, good governence, sustainable development, and globalization.
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Old 12-13-2009, 04:36 PM   #254
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I agree w/ your points, and I hope it's successful. The particular military leaders we have in charge now are brilliant.

I'm just much less optimistic than I was about the Iraq surge. Which makes me wonder why the folks who strongly opposed the Iraq Surge aren't going batshit crazy about this new one.
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Old 12-13-2009, 04:36 PM   #255
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Provided enough time and resources, there is no country or culture that is immune to the effects of security, good governence, sustainable development, and globalization.
This sentence is so incredibly vague that is actually says absolutely nothing.
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