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Old 03-18-2008, 10:38 AM   #31
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Originally posted by 2861U2


Why do you keep bringing them up? Yes, they've all said bad things. But you cannot equate them to the Wright story. Believe me, if one of those four was McCain's pastor for 20 years, it would be a huge story. More and more I'm hearing Democrats on the news say "well what about Hagee?" when Wright comes up. That's a pretty weak response. If anyone thinks you can compare McCain and Hagee with Obama and Wright, you're an idiot.


firstly, of that group, i find Wrights general comments to be far, far less offensive than the lives and careers of Dobson, Fallwell, Robertson, etc. and i think you'll find that all of them enjoy vastly more political power than Wright, who's really just a local preacher and who's influence probably doesn't go much beyond a few neighborhoods in Chicago.

so if we are comparing these men to each other, Wright is by far the least offensive, both in content and in influence.

however, you are correct in pointing out that McCain's relationship with Hagee doesn't compare to what has obviously been an intimate, intellectual, 20 year relationship with Obama.

does this bother me?

i will say that there is much, much more to Wright than we are hearing. an example:

[q]But I was only looking at the horizontal level. I did not understand nor could I see back then the vertical hookup that my mother and my father had. I did not know then that they were thanking him in advance for all they dared to hope he would do one day to their son, in their son, and through their son. That's why they prayed. That's why they hoped. That's why they kept on praying with no visible sign on the horizon. And I thank God I had praying parents, because now some thirty-five years later, when I look at what God has done in my life, I understand clearly why Hannah had the audacity to hope. Why my parents had the audacity to hope.

And that's why I say to you, hope is what saves us. Keep on hoping; keep on praying. God does hear and answer prayer.[/q]

and, yes, i will make a racialized distinction, because i think that matters here.

i have less of a problem with a black pastor railing against an oppressive government -- one that during his lifetime had maintained Jim Crow laws -- versus white pastors picking on minorities in the name of Jesus, and then asking for your money, and then peddling their influence into political power.

i find much of what has been tossed around by Wright to be awful. if there is one thing i've been consistent on, it's been defending the US against the insinuation that 9-11 was somehow "just desserts" for certain foreign policy decisions, that we had it coming. Wright seems to think that. i don't. and i don't think Obama does either.

finally, what continues to impress me about Obama is, first, that he hasn't tossed Wright, the man, under the bus, and, second, that he obviously has friends around who do more than kiss his ass and tell him how wonderful he is.

wish our president did that.
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:44 AM   #32
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they've been in your camp for years.
Yes, and we all know they've gotten PLENTY of scrutiny and downright hatred and wishes of death directed at them over the past 20 years. I don't think it's too much to ask to examine a controversial pastor from the other side of the aisle, for once, and question Obama's judgment and relationship with him.
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:46 AM   #33
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also, is it not possible to find good thoughts in the writings of MLK, Malcolm X, and Wright?
I hope you believe, also, that Robertson and Falwell have done good things and said good things and made a positive impact in peoples' lives, regardless of the controversial things they've said.
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:51 AM   #34
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I hope you believe, also, that Robertson and Falwell have done good things and said good things and made a positive impact in peoples' lives, regardless of the controversial things they've said.


yes, i'm sure that's true.

but how they've used their power -- and their ministries are designed to increase their power -- is wildly different than Wright.

i can see that these men are different sides of the same coin insofar as their rhetoric is meant to get a rise out of the audience, and they are all paranoid, conspiracy theorists.

but in terms of national influence, Wright isn't a blip on the radar. but Dobson gets to veto SCOTUS nominees who aren't christian enough.
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:58 AM   #35
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Originally posted by Irvine511
do you see them as no different than Wright? the same?

also, is it not possible to find good thoughts in the writings of MLK, Malcolm X, and Wright? or, like Indy seems to think, we have to choose one, and only one, since these three men are obviously incompatible.

despite the fact that their different writings illuminate the complexity of race in America.

it's never just one thing.
they are the same in that their incendiary rhetoric often detracts from the overall message they purport to embrace.

as far as comparing the speeches of MLK and Wright...

1. Wright's 9/11 sermon is a jarring sophomoric rant while MLK's historic speeches were well crafted, poetic works of rhetoric. 50 years from now Wright's words won't be studied in classrooms. Bush is often criticized for not using 9-11/the good will towards America at the time as a catalyst to unite our country. Similarily, Wright used 9/11 to divide, not unite the US.

2. Wright's speeches appeal to one's base emotions...anger, frusturation, hate, revenge, etc. MLK's speeches advocated making choices that were contrary to one's immediate emotions.
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:13 AM   #36
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I don't expect the superdelegates to override the pledged delegates.
I don't believe so, either. They'll go the way of the majority and the convention should run smoothly. I don't see a repeat of '68 at all. If anything, we may have something closer to '80.
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:23 AM   #37
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What happened

to

you in the

fire

that made it necessary for you to

hit

the

enter

button so much

while

typing

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Old 03-18-2008, 11:35 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaxFisher


they are the same in that their incendiary rhetoric often detracts from the overall message they purport to embrace.

as far as comparing the speeches of MLK and Wright...

1. Wright's 9/11 sermon is a jarring sophomoric rant while MLK's historic speeches were well crafted, poetic works of rhetoric. 50 years from now Wright's words won't be studied in classrooms. Bush is often criticized for not using 9-11/the good will towards America at the time as a catalyst to unite our country. Similarily, Wright used 9/11 to divide, not unite the US.

2. Wright's speeches appeal to one's base emotions...anger, frusturation, hate, revenge, etc. MLK's speeches advocated making choices that were contrary to one's immediate emotions.


i agree that i prefer the speeches of MLK to Wright, but my point is that Wright has a place in what might be known as "black thought" or "the black community," and to ignore or condemn Wright without any sense of historical context is to miss something entirely. and to set up a dichotomy, as INDY has done -- either you're with MLK or you're with MX, you can't have it both ways -- is not only false, but completely ignores the complexity of identity, of identifying and not disowning, even if not approving, of one's given social group. i tried to write about that last night.

anyway, here's some interesting background on Wright:

[q]Is Obama Wrong About Wright?

By Michael C. Dawson
TheRoot.com
Updated: 11:35 PM ET Mar 16, 2008

March 17, 2008 -- Senator Obama is mistaken. The problem with Reverend Jeremiah Wright, the Chicago minister who is the Obama family's pastor and the subject of recent fierce attacks in the media, is not, as Obama has stated, that "he has a lot of the…baggage of those times," (those times being the 1960s).

The problem is also not, as one paper characterized Obama's position on his minister, that Wright is stuck in a "time warp," in a period defined by racial division.

No, the problem is that Wright's opinions are well within the mainstream of those of black America. As public opinion researchers know, the problem is that despite all the oratory about racial unity and transcending race, this country remains deeply racially divided, especially in the realm of politics.

Most white people and the mainstream media tend to be horrified (in a titillating voyeuristic type of way), when they 'look under the hood' to see what's really on blacks folks' mind. Two thirds of whites believe that blacks have achieved or will soon achieve racial equality. Nearly eighty percent of blacks believe that racial justice for blacks will not be achieved either in their lifetime or at all in the U.S. In March 2003, when polls were showing strong support among whites for an invasion of Iraq, a large majority of blacks were shown to oppose military intervention.

In a survey I took during the week that the U.S. went to war, blacks not only opposed the war in large numbers, but a very large majority also thought that protest against the war was one's patriotic duty. A majority of whites thought protesting the war was unpatriotic.

The same type of divides, as I noted in an earlier essay, have appeared in evaluations of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, of evaluations of President Bush during the first six years of his administration, during most of the Clinton administration, and for the entire Reagan presidency.

More specifically, Reverend Wright's blend of leftism and Afro-Centrism remains one of the classic patterns of black political ideology. His philosophy is very similar to a number of honored black theologians, including the esteemed Reverend James Cone of Union Theological Seminary.

Indeed, one could argue that Reverend Wright's criticism of racial dynamics in the U.S. and American foreign policy is milder than the biting criticism of American capitalism and imperialism found in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. during the last years of his life. (note: seems we often forget that MLK was tougher than the popular myth would like you to believe ... it does get hard to profess gushing admiration for someone who is criticizing you). During the 1990s, seventy percent of black Americans believed the country was racially, economically, and socially unfair toward blacks and the poor.

The black community is angry about race relations in this country. The black community is angry about the bankrupt foreign policy that this nation has pursued since before 9/11. Blacks are angry about what is perceived as the political and moral blindness of white Americans. This anger is spread across the black ideological spectrum (with the exception, perhaps, of within the ranks of black conservatives).

Black nationalists, black leftists, black feminists and black liberals may differ on their solutions for what America's ills, but they all generally agree on the overarching problems Not surprisingly, the last time a scientific survey of black political ideologies was conducted, a large segment of the black population fell into the category of those who believed in the principles of liberalism, yet they held no hope, the survey indicated, that this country would ever live up to its democratic and liberal creed.

So Barack Obama is wrong. Reverend Wright does not represent outdated thinking. The critical views he expresses are all too rooted in the present. The racial divisions that Obama seeks to transcend with his message of hope and unity are not a feature of the past, but a deep structural fixture in this nation's present.

Obama will be continually called upon by the mainstream media to prove that he's not a nationalist like Minister Farrakhan, or an Afrocentric leftist like Reverend Wright. The suspicion will always be that he holds opinions closer to those expressed by Rev. Wright than those he is voicing in the campaign.

Consequently, if the Obama campaign wishes to bring this campaign to a successful conclusion, it will have to realize that it cannot run away from the issue of race and racial division, but will have to find a language that both addresses our hopes for the future while recognizing the difficulties and divisions of the present. The nation's in real trouble if its politicians and pundits continue to believe that that the only road to racial harmony is through denying the past and refusing to discuss the injustices of the present.

Michael C. Dawson is the John D. MacArthur professor of political science at the University of Chicago.
[/q]
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:04 PM   #39
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Obama's speech, the part about the pastor:



[q] I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely – just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed…

…Like other predominantly black churches across the country, Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety – the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger. Like other black churches, Trinity’s services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.

And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions – the good and the bad – of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother – a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.

These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.

Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America – to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality. [/q]
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:33 PM   #40
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Unfortunately I had to leave for class right as Obama was starting so I missed it, I'm hoping I can watch it unfiltered online if I can find the time.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:09 PM   #41
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I think it came on at 7:30 am here

i do have the last 30 minutes on my tivo

but, to be fair

I want to watch it from the beginning to end.

I hope it will replay.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:17 PM   #42
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if someone finds out that it will be rebroadcast on one of the news networks or C-Span

please post that information in here.

I don't want to watch it on youtube.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:21 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


Yes, and we all know they've gotten PLENTY of scrutiny and downright hatred and wishes of death directed at them over the past 20 years. I don't think it's too much to ask to examine a controversial pastor from the other side of the aisle, for once, and question Obama's judgment and relationship with him.
Yet your party still embraces them. The Democratic party isn't embracing Wright. See the difference?
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:29 PM   #44
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Deep I'd be surprised if any of the networks would rebroadcast it, CSPAN might though. Too bad we don't get CSPAN at school anymore I was the only who watched it
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:33 PM   #45
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Barack's speech is getting extremely positive feedback. I'll track it down online in a minute.

Now, I suppose we'll just wait and see if this is enough to pull him out of the ditch or not. It won't hurt him, I'll tell you that.
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