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Old 06-05-2008, 04:30 PM   #121
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I still respect Powell because he left.


I have very little respect of C Rice
because she stays when she reasonably could have left and went back into academia and no one would have blamed her.
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Old 06-05-2008, 04:32 PM   #122
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you got to be kidding me
one of the reasons I was supporting Hillary is because I believe Bill Clinton was an "outstanding" president, with exceptional skills, I believe Hillary would have had a presidency similar to his.
That argument doesn't make sense to me. Hillary Clinton is not Bill Clinton, so there's no sure fire way to say she'd be a leader in the same way he was. If that was the case, W would've been a leader similar to his father. We all know the flaw in that theory. We live in a very different country than we did during the Clinton administration. While he was an outstanding president, even Bill Clinton wouldn't have Bill Clinton's presidency if he was running today. The disaster of the past 7 years have done so much damage that it's not worthwhile to hope that someone will come in and govern like Bill Clinton. If Hillary would've been the nominee and eventually president, she simply would not have been able to try and govern similarly to Bill.
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Old 06-05-2008, 04:39 PM   #123
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I still respect Powell because he left.


I have very little respect of C Rice
because she stays when she reasonably could have left and went back into academia and no one would have blamed her.
I agree with you here. I think Powell is the only person with principles that was ever in the Bush administration. I wish he would've had more courage to speak out against the Iraq war before we went in, but with the coercion and intimidation tactics Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Libby, and company used to silence anyone who had doubts or dissents, I'm not surprised. As for Condi, I think she had principles, but they're not being shown by staying with the administration. Frankly, I don't see how she ever got in, in the first place. She's brilliant, but she doesn't seem to mesh well with the rest.
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:53 PM   #124
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OK so I've been without internet since Sunday and I don't know what's been said in this thread but here's my bit:

WOO FRICKIN HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:56 PM   #125
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^


wb!!!
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Old 06-05-2008, 07:30 PM   #126
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Powell is 'quietly' one of Obama's advisors, isn't he? Did I read that somewhere?
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:16 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
I still respect Powell because he left.


I have very little respect of C Rice
because she stays when she reasonably could have left and went back into academia and no one would have blamed her.
There are few if Secretary Of States, that stay with a President for his full time in office. That last Secretary of State to serve 8 consecutive years was David Dean Rusk in the 1960s.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:22 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by U2isthebest View Post
I agree with you here. I think Powell is the only person with principles that was ever in the Bush administration. I wish he would've had more courage to speak out against the Iraq war before we went in, but with the coercion and intimidation tactics Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Libby, and company used to silence anyone who had doubts or dissents, I'm not surprised. As for Condi, I think she had principles, but they're not being shown by staying with the administration. Frankly, I don't see how she ever got in, in the first place. She's brilliant, but she doesn't seem to mesh well with the rest.
Colin Powell supported the Iraq war to remove Saddam from power, both before the start of hostilities and even after he left the administration. He went on Barbara Walters show nearly a year after he left the administration and stated "when the President said it was not tolerable for Saddam to remain in violation of the UN resolutions, I was right there with him on the use of military force". He also brought up the fact that many people have inaccurately stated his views for years on various issues going all the way back to the first Gulf War in 1991.
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:03 PM   #129
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^He pressed Bush to try a multilateral approach and work through the UN for a new Security Council resolution to persuade Iraq to disarm before we invaded. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld were against this and simply wanted to make a case for war. Bush gave a speech at the UN where he stated he was seeking said resolution, but he also said he'd go to war with or without it. That's what Powell was against. If he'd spoken out more strongly, the invasion might have been delayed, and we as Americans might have had more of a chance to see real intelligence on Iraq before we gave the support that got us into this horrific quagmire. Powell may have supported an invasion as a last resort, but he certainly didn't see it as the first choice as most of the administration did. I should've made that clearer in my other post.
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:20 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strongbow View Post
Colin Powell supported the Iraq war to remove Saddam from power, both before the start of hostilities and even after he left the administration. He went on Barbara Walters show nearly a year after he left the administration and stated "when the President said it was not tolerable for Saddam to remain in violation of the UN resolutions, I was right there with him on the use of military force". He also brought up the fact that many people have inaccurately stated his views for years on various issues going all the way back to the first Gulf War in 1991.
I don't think his approval was as black and white as you're portraying it.

http://www.aifestival.org/library/tr...transcript.pdf

Quote:
MR. LEHRER: A personal question. The
conventional wisdom I would guess in this hall and the
majority opinion in this country, among all citizens
whether they be Republicans or Democrats whatever how will
they view the war is that you could, you personally could
have stopped this from happening. What is the truth? I
don't know -- I'm just saying that, that is what people
think. That is what people think.

MR. POWELL: I know, people say that to me.
But --

MR. LEHRER: What do you think, what do you say
when people say that to you 1 like I just did?

MR. POWELL: Well, I just asked you how I could
have -- I could have -- I tried to avoid this war. I went
to the President in August of 2002 after coming back from
a trip and seeing all the planning that was underway and
we had a long meeting upstairs in the residence. Dr. Rice
was there but it was essentially a conversation between
President Bush and myself. And for the better part of two
and a half hours I took him through not only the military
planning that was being done in the Pentagon but I took
them through the consequences of going into an Arab
country and becoming the occupiers. It is said that I
used the Pottery Barn Rule. I never did it, Tom Friedman
did it, he is next, he's the one who did that. But what I
did say to him, once you break it you are going to own it
and we're going to be responsible for 26 million people
standing there looking at us. And it's going to suck up a
good 40 to 50 percent of the army for years. And it's
going to take all the oxygen out of the political
environment. And you need to understand this and the
expense is going to be enormous. And he took it all
aboard and he said, “What should we do?” And I said,
"Well, we should take it to the United Nations. Because
they are the offended party. It is their resolutions that
have been offended.” And I briefed other members of the
Cabinet over the next day or two and we then had a meeting
a week or so later and every member of the national
security team agreed with the judgment that we take it to
the UN. And we worked for seven weeks after taking it to
the UN in September and got a resolution unanimously
approved by the Security Council with some get-out clauses
for Saddam Hussein to avoid the conflict. And I said to
the President, if we can solve this diplomatically are you
prepared to accept that outcome, even if it means that we
have a “changed regime” in Baghdad with Saddam Hussein
still there, but no longer a danger or a threat but we
wouldn’t have a “regime change.” And it was not something
that he was immediately attracted to. But he said yes, he
would have to and we tried. But at that time I made that
point to him I also had to say to him that you are the
President, you will have to make the ultimate judgment,
and if the judgment is this isn't working and we don't
think it is going to solve the problem, then if military
action is undertaken I'm with you, I support you. And
frankly, when military action was undertaken it looked
like it was extremely successful. It was a lack of
planning for these latter phases and the things that got
out of control that really has brought us to this point.
And so, could I have stopped it by quitting? I assure you
that would not have done it. And to quit while it was
underway was not my way of doing business in serving in
the administration. And so I stayed till 2003 and then in
early 2004 in a conversation with the President, I told
him I thought it would be wise for him to make some
changes in this team at the end of 2004 after the
election, and that it would be the time for me to leave.
He certainly sounds a lot more thoughtful and cautious than the rest of the administration was. It also sounds like he was very aware that with this administration, there was nothing he could have done to change the course of events. Although he doesn't explicitly state it, it also seems telling that he tacked on that part at the end about it not being "[his] way" to quit while it was going on, but that he took an out at the first opportunity where it wouldn't seem like he was deserting a sinking ship.
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Old 06-05-2008, 09:57 PM   #131
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^Thanks VP, for providing some words from Powell himself that "source" the point I was trying to make.
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Old 06-06-2008, 11:45 AM   #132
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Has anyone seen this? Obama and his wife fist bump to "Beautiful Day"

The Swamp: Obama fist bump and tush touch?
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:00 PM   #133
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I can't believe anyone would even waste the space to ask if Obama touched his wife's ass or not...

That's real journalism...
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:02 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
I don't think his approval was as black and white as you're portraying it.

http://www.aifestival.org/library/tr...transcript.pdf



He certainly sounds a lot more thoughtful and cautious than the rest of the administration was. It also sounds like he was very aware that with this administration, there was nothing he could have done to change the course of events. Although he doesn't explicitly state it, it also seems telling that he tacked on that part at the end about it not being "[his] way" to quit while it was going on, but that he took an out at the first opportunity where it wouldn't seem like he was deserting a sinking ship.
The fact that Powell was more "cautious and thoughtful" does not change the fact that he ultimately supported the use of military force to remove Saddam from power and to this day still supports that decision. He believes that the world is safer without Saddam still being in power in Iraq in stark contrast to Barrack Obama.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:08 PM   #135
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If only the world were so black and white...
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