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Old 11-04-2004, 07:12 PM   #91
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Dave C -

Sorry that I angered you to such a degree, I apologize as well to you. What you said for the most part was truthful, and I can only express my regret at what I said against your friend.

--- Nicholas ---

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Old 11-04-2004, 07:13 PM   #92
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Apology accepted.

I suppose I owe you one as well, I kinda went off on you too.

Are we all cool here?
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Old 11-04-2004, 07:14 PM   #93
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Thank you. Please do stick around.

It's a beautiful day, I've already forgotten this.
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Old 11-04-2004, 07:17 PM   #94
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Dave C -

Yeah, everything is cool, I know what it's like to lose temper for someone you care about and respect. I also had a very bad week, and I think I took out in this thread a bit... but politics never was my strong point, I think I just wanna ramble about U2 for now... or other, maybe, fun issues... other bands, books, hobbies... I just need to learn how to surf the threads more efficiently I think. Hopefully anitram will be alright with me too one day, because I really don't like playing the part of the jerk...
see you around the U2 cyber land...

--- Nicholas ---

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Old 11-05-2004, 04:18 AM   #95
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Originally posted by anitram
Look, I agree with what you are saying.
But you need to look at reality - go abroad, and see what people will say to you.
Sorry anitram, I happen to think I'm in touch w/ that reality. I don't have the financial means to go abroad. I think my posts here indicate my disgust w/ Bush and what HE represents, but I will always maintain that has nothing to do with me. I did what I could, I voted for Kerry.

If I did have the luxury, I'm not going to deny to anyone that I'm an American. If people wherever want to hate me, spit on me for it, etc, that's their issue. It's a pity that they are that closed minded that they wouldn't listen to what I had to say first.
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Old 11-05-2004, 07:17 AM   #96
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disco2blue and U2traveller, stop making generalizations regarding conservatives and liberals. they are uncountables within a broad group of people and the fraction you have met is surely not representative of the whole.

same goes for nationalities.

oh and U2traveller, international metrics have, for quite some time, ranked Canada above the U.S. in terms of quality of life. scandinavian nations are also routinely rated higher.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:11 AM   #97
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disco2blue, I appreciate your very lenient, generous and even-handed view of America. My perception is that most non-Americans don't have the ability to do this, at least not for Americans because it's the fad, it's in, it's cool, it's the right thing to do to be prejudiced toward Americans.

Fine, you all can be that way. In the end the oppressed always triumphs.

As for your stupid "study." I don't put much stock in any study because I'm smart enough to realize that it's just someone's opinion, and usually not very accurate. No one can tell me where the best places to live are. No one can assume to know everything. I think it's wrong. I live in the best place in the world, Utah. We have the highest quality of life of all. We are truly a society unto itself really. We will shine in the future.

I'm proud to be LDS. I'm proud to be a Utahn. We have it very good here. But I have to tell you, that other places I've been around Utah seem to have it pretty good, too. I'd venture to say that the best places to live in America are Utah, Colorado, Nevada, and Arizona. Yes, Nevada, even despite the Strip. I guess because these states and cities resemble Utah and Salt Lake. I live in a very good area of the world and I'm very happy to be here. I'm also very happy that all of them joined Utah and voted for Bush (although I did not). Now I see it was the best way to go after all.

I don't agree with Bush's foreign policy and I believe that Bush did wrong in Iraq, and I'm frankly very annoyed and angry that we're still over there and that there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. I hope that next time we'll try to improve the world by just helping these poor and troubled countries WITHOUT force, and without expecting anything in return. Just go in and ask if they WANT help. I think that would be a fun and very charitable thing for the U.S. to do. But, the U.S. is not LDS people, so I don't know if I can ever expect to see that. I can hope, and I can exert my influence. Both my husband and I would like to be able to whisper in the ear of President Bush, and maybe somehow we can, maybe somehow together we can get something going.

I don't believe and agree that Canada has a "better quality of life" than America. I think that study is totally wrong, just like it was totally wrong when the U.S. was number one in their eyes. That's pitiful. It's like a magazine choosing a different person every year to be the most beautiful. Hello. You mean the person from last year deteriorated in one year? Lol.

It's ridiculous and stupid and childish.

I don't believe and I don't agree. I've been to Canada and frankly, I thought you had a worse quality of life. Your cities are dirty, not very well planned out, and I've heard they have many problems.

You just really cannot judge an entire country on a few things, a few people, a few cities, a few areas in a few cities. If you don't look at everything then your little "study" is moot and ridiculous. I am quite sure many Americans would also not consider that "study" legit.

Hey, and disco2blue, I've never been to Tennessee, where your girlfriend is from, but from the pictures I've seen of it it's a very beautiful, and NICE and decent state, with many people living a good quality of life.

Canada is not better, and it is NOT noble and decent to look down on Americans. In the end, unless you are really naive, those who look down at someone else and who put themselves up high are usually the ones to fall.

Humility is power, and if America is more humble now and being made more humble I'm proud to be American, and that's a good thing, and I know God loves us, and I think people are really deluding themselves if they don't think that America is the best country in the world for a lot of reasons.

You must also remember how diverse we are, how fast we're growing, and how large our population is. If you take those things into consideration we BURY you with quality of life. We have so many more people to take care of. We could really be poor and struggling with the load we have to carry. But, no, we're the greatest and the strongest, the most industrious, possibly the most humble now, and the noblest.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:14 AM   #98
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I'd take a Liberal government any day over George Bush Jr. (aka. Stephen Harper) and his cronies.

And anyway, I don't think people are really being serious when they say they're going to move to Canada. It's just a knee-jerk reaction to the disappointment felt over this shoddy election. And if people want to come here, I say let them. Of course, it would be great if they stayed in the US to keep up the fight against the Republicans, but I wouldn't look at them in a lesser light because they want to live somewhere where they can have a better quality of life (excluding the whole health care issue, of course ).
I think that health care is one issue where although it has it's problems, it is baffling that anyone could think that the US has a better health care system.

Our health care is paid for by the government. Noone in Canada has ever gone bankrupt because they got sick or injured themself. Poor people don't have to worry about taking their kids to a doctor. Maybe the wait is a little long, but I would rather wait a few hours to see a doctor then not be able to see one at all because I can't afford it.

IMO, Canada is the greatest country in the world. Everyone is welcomed into the country with open arms, including Americans. We encourage people from other countries to continue with their beliefs and traditions and share them with us. This diversity is what makes the Canadian culture what it is - rich and expansive.

Canadians are allowed to be who they are, and I love that.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:19 AM   #99
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Originally posted by U2Traveller
disco2blue, I appreciate your very lenient, generous and even-handed view of America. My perception is that most non-Americans don't have the ability to do this, at least not for Americans because it's the fad, it's in, it's cool, it's the right thing to do to be prejudiced toward Americans.

Fine, you all can be that way. In the end the oppressed always triumphs.

As for your stupid "study." I don't put much stock in any study because I'm smart enough to realize that it's just someone's opinion, and usually not very accurate.
America as the oppressed? FYM just gets better and better.

So do you dismiss all studies as "not very accurate"? Or just those whose conclusions you dislike?

ETA: I'm also impressed that you managed to go from praising America's humility to claiming God loves America and anyone who doesn't think America's the best is delusional all in the one sentence. What a fantastic illustration of American humility.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:19 AM   #100
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As for Toronto - you feel safe where I live? You should live here a little more often before making such a statement. Toronto is turning into a very dirty, gang ridden place. I've been robbed once, assailed by drunks, smashed into by a road enraged motorist, my best friend was stabbed at a club - he is okay thankfully. Of course, stabbings like his case are not even reported fully any more because it is commonplace.


--- Nicholas ---
I think that you are hanging out in the wrong neighbourhoods. I live right downtown Toronto and I feel totally safe. I have never been attacked, seen anyone attacked, or heard of anyone being attacked. I think that the people that you hang out with and the places that you go may have more to do with these incidents then the city that you live in. Every city in the world has crime issues.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:21 AM   #101
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Originally posted by spinninghead77


I think that health care is one issue where although it has it's problems, it is baffling that anyone could think that the US has a better health care system.

Our health care is paid for by the government. Noone in Canada has ever gone bankrupt because they got sick or injured themself. Poor people don't have to worry about taking their kids to a doctor. Maybe the wait is a little long, but I would rather wait a few hours to see a doctor then not be able to see one at all because I can't afford it.

IMO, Canada is the greatest country in the world. Everyone is welcomed into the country with open arms, including Americans. We encourage people from other countries to continue with their beliefs and traditions and share them with us. This diversity is what makes the Canadian culture what it is - rich and expansive.

Canadians are allowed to be who they are, and I love that.
Americans don't like to depend on the government.

Also, hey, I live in Utah, and Utah is KNOWN for its high-quality healthcare. Our schools are known to be some of the best to teach it and to do research. Our hospitals are clean and beautiful and on the forefront of everything including cancer cures. We have it VERY good when it comes to healthcare. Healthcare is important to Americans. We truly are the leaders there. As for how people can get treatment, there are some bugs, but we unlike many don't give up and we are working on it. There are qualities about Americans that no one else has and that makes us win and improve. I'd say that right there should be counted in that little "study."

No one can deny we're brave, strong, courageous, and stand up to bullies, either. Bullies, like YOU.

Everyone is welcomed in Canada with open arms, "including Americans?" Jee, how very condescending of you. Thank you. Not.

America's the best, and our diversity, I dare say, is even more than yours.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:23 AM   #102
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


America as the oppressed? FYM just gets better and better.

So do you dismiss all studies as "not very accurate"? Or just those whose conclusions you dislike?
Yes, I dismiss all stupid studies as not very accurate, because I know time and time again that they are just not comprehensive. They are restricted to a few things, a few areas, AND usually very biased. (According to people's feelings).

Yes, it looks like Americans are becoming the oppressed people now. If you don't want it to look that way then I think you should change your policy toward America.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:24 AM   #103
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I think that you are hanging out in the wrong neighbourhoods. I live right downtown Toronto and I feel totally safe. I have never been attacked, seen anyone attacked, or heard of anyone being attacked. I think that the people that you hang out with and the places that you go may have more to do with these incidents then the city that you live in. Every city in the world has crime issues.
He's not the only person from a U2 site that has said Toronto has big problems and is no better, or even worse than New York. I've heard that New York has actually improved a lot.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:26 AM   #104
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Our hospitals are clean and beautiful and on the forefront of everything including cancer cures. We have it VERY good when it comes to healthcare. Healthcare is important to Americans. We truly are the leaders there. As for how people can get treatment, there are some bugs, but we unlike many don't give up and we are working on it.
So can anyone access those clean, beautiful hospitals? Or is it only the ones with the financial resources to pay thousands of dollars a year for health insurance? I don't think the poorest American citizens have it "very good" when it comes to healthcare, in fact I would suggest that the poor in America have far less access to healthcare than the poor in Canada or the many European countries with national healthcare systems.

Access to healthcare should be based on need, not on ability to pay.
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:29 AM   #105
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Yes, I dismiss all stupid studies as not very accurate, because I know time and time again that they are just not comprehensive. They are restricted to a few things, a few areas, AND usually very biased. (According to people's feelings).

Yes, it looks like Americans are becoming the oppressed people now. If you don't want it to look that way then I think you should change your policy toward America.
As I recall, it was the UN Human Development Index which you dismissed as stupid and inaccurate. Could you clarify in what areas you feel the above study is not comprehensive and what areas you feel are biased?

I don't see Americans as oppressed for the simple reason that the United States is the most powerful nation in the world. Certainly individual groups within America are oppressed (the poor, Black people, gay people to name a few) but the country as a whole is not oppressed. Rather than me changing my "policy" towards America, I would suggest you need to reconsider your definition of oppression.
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