O Canada, We Want to Move to Thee

[disco2blue]

Dave C -

Sorry that I angered you to such a degree, I apologize as well to you. What you said for the most part was truthful, and I can only express my regret at what I said against your friend.

--- Nicholas ---

zoou2@hotmail.com

 

[DaveC]

Apology accepted.

I suppose I owe you one as well, I kinda went off on you too.

Are we all cool here?

 

[anitram]

Thank you. Please do stick around.

It's a beautiful day, I've already forgotten this.

 

[disco2blue]

Dave C -

Yeah, everything is cool, I know what it's like to lose temper for someone you care about and respect. I also had a very bad week, and I think I took out in this thread a bit... but politics never was my strong point, I think I just wanna ramble about U2 for now... or other, maybe, fun issues... other bands, books, hobbies... I just need to learn how to surf the threads more efficiently I think. Hopefully anitram will be alright with me too one day, because I really don't like playing the part of the jerk...
see you around the U2 cyber land...

--- Nicholas ---

zoou2@hotmail.com

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Look, I agree with what you are saying.
But you need to look at reality - go abroad, and see what people will say to you.

Sorry anitram, I happen to think I'm in touch w/ that reality. I don't have the financial means to go abroad. I think my posts here indicate my disgust w/ Bush and what HE represents, but I will always maintain that has nothing to do with me. I did what I could, I voted for Kerry.

If I did have the luxury, I'm not going to deny to anyone that I'm an American. If people wherever want to hate me, spit on me for it, etc, that's their issue. It's a pity that they are that closed minded that they wouldn't listen to what I had to say first.

 

[kobayashi]

disco2blue and U2traveller, stop making generalizations regarding conservatives and liberals. they are uncountables within a broad group of people and the fraction you have met is surely not representative of the whole.

same goes for nationalities.

oh and U2traveller, international metrics have, for quite some time, ranked Canada above the U.S. in terms of quality of life. scandinavian nations are also routinely rated higher.

 

[U2Traveller]

disco2blue, I appreciate your very lenient, generous and even-handed view of America. My perception is that most non-Americans don't have the ability to do this, at least not for Americans because it's the fad, it's in, it's cool, it's the right thing to do to be prejudiced toward Americans.

Fine, you all can be that way. In the end the oppressed always triumphs.

As for your stupid "study." I don't put much stock in any study because I'm smart enough to realize that it's just someone's opinion, and usually not very accurate. No one can tell me where the best places to live are. No one can assume to know everything. I think it's wrong. I live in the best place in the world, Utah. We have the highest quality of life of all. We are truly a society unto itself really. We will shine in the future.

I'm proud to be LDS. I'm proud to be a Utahn. We have it very good here. But I have to tell you, that other places I've been around Utah seem to have it pretty good, too. I'd venture to say that the best places to live in America are Utah, Colorado, Nevada, and Arizona. Yes, Nevada, even despite the Strip. I guess because these states and cities resemble Utah and Salt Lake. I live in a very good area of the world and I'm very happy to be here. I'm also very happy that all of them joined Utah and voted for Bush (although I did not). Now I see it was the best way to go after all.

I don't agree with Bush's foreign policy and I believe that Bush did wrong in Iraq, and I'm frankly very annoyed and angry that we're still over there and that there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. I hope that next time we'll try to improve the world by just helping these poor and troubled countries WITHOUT force, and without expecting anything in return. Just go in and ask if they WANT help. I think that would be a fun and very charitable thing for the U.S. to do. But, the U.S. is not LDS people, so I don't know if I can ever expect to see that. I can hope, and I can exert my influence. Both my husband and I would like to be able to whisper in the ear of President Bush, and maybe somehow we can, maybe somehow together we can get something going.

I don't believe and agree that Canada has a "better quality of life" than America. I think that study is totally wrong, just like it was totally wrong when the U.S. was number one in their eyes. That's pitiful. It's like a magazine choosing a different person every year to be the most beautiful. Hello. You mean the person from last year deteriorated in one year? Lol.

It's ridiculous and stupid and childish.

I don't believe and I don't agree. I've been to Canada and frankly, I thought you had a worse quality of life. Your cities are dirty, not very well planned out, and I've heard they have many problems.

You just really cannot judge an entire country on a few things, a few people, a few cities, a few areas in a few cities. If you don't look at everything then your little "study" is moot and ridiculous. I am quite sure many Americans would also not consider that "study" legit.

Hey, and disco2blue, I've never been to Tennessee, where your girlfriend is from, but from the pictures I've seen of it it's a very beautiful, and NICE and decent state, with many people living a good quality of life.

Canada is not better, and it is NOT noble and decent to look down on Americans. In the end, unless you are really naive, those who look down at someone else and who put themselves up high are usually the ones to fall.

Humility is power, and if America is more humble now and being made more humble I'm proud to be American, and that's a good thing, and I know God loves us, and I think people are really deluding themselves if they don't think that America is the best country in the world for a lot of reasons.

You must also remember how diverse we are, how fast we're growing, and how large our population is. If you take those things into consideration we BURY you with quality of life. We have so many more people to take care of. We could really be poor and struggling with the load we have to carry. But, no, we're the greatest and the strongest, the most industrious, possibly the most humble now, and the noblest.

 

[spinninghead77]

I'd take a Liberal government any day over George Bush Jr. (aka. Stephen Harper) and his cronies.

And anyway, I don't think people are really being serious when they say they're going to move to Canada. It's just a knee-jerk reaction to the disappointment felt over this shoddy election. And if people want to come here, I say let them. Of course, it would be great if they stayed in the US to keep up the fight against the Republicans, but I wouldn't look at them in a lesser light because they want to live somewhere where they can have a better quality of life (excluding the whole health care issue, of course ).

I think that health care is one issue where although it has it's problems, it is baffling that anyone could think that the US has a better health care system.

Our health care is paid for by the government. Noone in Canada has ever gone bankrupt because they got sick or injured themself. Poor people don't have to worry about taking their kids to a doctor. Maybe the wait is a little long, but I would rather wait a few hours to see a doctor then not be able to see one at all because I can't afford it.

IMO, Canada is the greatest country in the world. Everyone is welcomed into the country with open arms, including Americans. We encourage people from other countries to continue with their beliefs and traditions and share them with us. This diversity is what makes the Canadian culture what it is - rich and expansive.

Canadians are allowed to be who they are, and I love that.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

disco2blue, I appreciate your very lenient, generous and even-handed view of America. My perception is that most non-Americans don't have the ability to do this, at least not for Americans because it's the fad, it's in, it's cool, it's the right thing to do to be prejudiced toward Americans.

Fine, you all can be that way. In the end the oppressed always triumphs.

As for your stupid "study." I don't put much stock in any study because I'm smart enough to realize that it's just someone's opinion, and usually not very accurate.

America as the oppressed? FYM just gets better and better.

So do you dismiss all studies as "not very accurate"? Or just those whose conclusions you dislike?

ETA: I'm also impressed that you managed to go from praising America's humility to claiming God loves America and anyone who doesn't think America's the best is delusional all in the one sentence. What a fantastic illustration of American humility.

 

[spinninghead77]

As for Toronto - you feel safe where I live? You should live here a little more often before making such a statement. Toronto is turning into a very dirty, gang ridden place. I've been robbed once, assailed by drunks, smashed into by a road enraged motorist, my best friend was stabbed at a club - he is okay thankfully. Of course, stabbings like his case are not even reported fully any more because it is commonplace.


--- Nicholas ---

I think that you are hanging out in the wrong neighbourhoods. I live right downtown Toronto and I feel totally safe. I have never been attacked, seen anyone attacked, or heard of anyone being attacked. I think that the people that you hang out with and the places that you go may have more to do with these incidents then the city that you live in. Every city in the world has crime issues.

 

[U2Traveller]

I think that health care is one issue where although it has it's problems, it is baffling that anyone could think that the US has a better health care system.

Our health care is paid for by the government. Noone in Canada has ever gone bankrupt because they got sick or injured themself. Poor people don't have to worry about taking their kids to a doctor. Maybe the wait is a little long, but I would rather wait a few hours to see a doctor then not be able to see one at all because I can't afford it.

IMO, Canada is the greatest country in the world. Everyone is welcomed into the country with open arms, including Americans. We encourage people from other countries to continue with their beliefs and traditions and share them with us. This diversity is what makes the Canadian culture what it is - rich and expansive.

Canadians are allowed to be who they are, and I love that.

Americans don't like to depend on the government.

Also, hey, I live in Utah, and Utah is KNOWN for its high-quality healthcare. Our schools are known to be some of the best to teach it and to do research. Our hospitals are clean and beautiful and on the forefront of everything including cancer cures. We have it VERY good when it comes to healthcare. Healthcare is important to Americans. We truly are the leaders there. As for how people can get treatment, there are some bugs, but we unlike many don't give up and we are working on it. There are qualities about Americans that no one else has and that makes us win and improve. I'd say that right there should be counted in that little "study."

No one can deny we're brave, strong, courageous, and stand up to bullies, either. Bullies, like YOU.

Everyone is welcomed in Canada with open arms, "including Americans?" Jee, how very condescending of you. Thank you. Not.

America's the best, and our diversity, I dare say, is even more than yours.

 

[U2Traveller]

America as the oppressed? FYM just gets better and better.

So do you dismiss all studies as "not very accurate"? Or just those whose conclusions you dislike?

Yes, I dismiss all stupid studies as not very accurate, because I know time and time again that they are just not comprehensive. They are restricted to a few things, a few areas, AND usually very biased. (According to people's feelings).

Yes, it looks like Americans are becoming the oppressed people now. If you don't want it to look that way then I think you should change your policy toward America.

 

[U2Traveller]

I think that you are hanging out in the wrong neighbourhoods. I live right downtown Toronto and I feel totally safe. I have never been attacked, seen anyone attacked, or heard of anyone being attacked. I think that the people that you hang out with and the places that you go may have more to do with these incidents then the city that you live in. Every city in the world has crime issues.

He's not the only person from a U2 site that has said Toronto has big problems and is no better, or even worse than New York. I've heard that New York has actually improved a lot.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Our hospitals are clean and beautiful and on the forefront of everything including cancer cures. We have it VERY good when it comes to healthcare. Healthcare is important to Americans. We truly are the leaders there. As for how people can get treatment, there are some bugs, but we unlike many don't give up and we are working on it.

So can anyone access those clean, beautiful hospitals? Or is it only the ones with the financial resources to pay thousands of dollars a year for health insurance? I don't think the poorest American citizens have it "very good" when it comes to healthcare, in fact I would suggest that the poor in America have far less access to healthcare than the poor in Canada or the many European countries with national healthcare systems.

Access to healthcare should be based on need, not on ability to pay.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Yes, I dismiss all stupid studies as not very accurate, because I know time and time again that they are just not comprehensive. They are restricted to a few things, a few areas, AND usually very biased. (According to people's feelings).

Yes, it looks like Americans are becoming the oppressed people now. If you don't want it to look that way then I think you should change your policy toward America.

As I recall, it was the UN Human Development Index which you dismissed as stupid and inaccurate. Could you clarify in what areas you feel the above study is not comprehensive and what areas you feel are biased?

I don't see Americans as oppressed for the simple reason that the United States is the most powerful nation in the world. Certainly individual groups within America are oppressed (the poor, Black people, gay people to name a few) but the country as a whole is not oppressed. Rather than me changing my "policy" towards America, I would suggest you need to reconsider your definition of oppression.

 

[kobayashi]

As for your stupid "study." I don't put much stock in any study because I'm smart enough to realize that it's just someone's opinion, and usually not very accurate. No one can tell me where the best places to live are. No one can assume to know everything. I think it's wrong. I live in the best place in the world, Utah. We have the highest quality of life of all. We are truly a society unto itself really. We will shine in the future.

...

Canada is not better, and it is NOT noble and decent to look down on Americans. In the end, unless you are really naive, those who look down at someone else and who put themselves up high are usually the ones to fall.

well alrighty then-i think we have a pretty good idea of what we're dealing with. and i have my doubts as to how far we can progress in our discussion if you choose to be so close minded.

U2Traveller, i can say for myself and a few others here that we were not and do not 'look down on' you. we are merely quoting internationally recognized comprehensive studies. no one is saying les etats-unis is a bad place to live or for that matter, your beloved utah. we are merely pointing to globally respected metrics which place several nations above your own routinely.

but have it as you wish. the truth is what you make of it.

edit: for anyone who might be interested, the un human development report 2004.

the un human development report

1 Norway
2 Sweden
3 Australia
4 Canada
5 Netherlands
6 Belgium
7 Iceland
8 U.S.A.
9 Japan
10 Ireland

this is a compilation of life expectancy at birth, adult literacy rate, combined gross enrolment ratio for primary, secondary and tertiary schools, GDP per capita, life expectancy index, education index, GDP index amongst others...

 

[spinninghead77]

He's not the only person from a U2 site that has said Toronto has big problems and is no better, or even worse than New York. I've heard that New York has actually improved a lot.

I agree that Toronto has problems, and I said that in my post. I just don't think that the number of problems experienced by the previous poster is an accurate portrayal of Canada.

That would be like me saying that Canada is totally safe because I have never been attacked.

 

[U2Traveller]

So can anyone access those clean, beautiful hospitals? Or is it only the ones with the financial resources to pay thousands of dollars a year for health insurance? I don't think the poorest American citizens have it "very good" when it comes to healthcare, in fact I would suggest that the poor in America have far less access to healthcare than the poor in Canada or the many European countries with national healthcare systems.

Access to healthcare should be based on need, not on ability to pay.

Uh...yeah. Most people can. We have work to do to make sure that all can easily and so that healthcare is less expensive, and so that jobs provide more. BUT, it's not unfixable, and we're working on it.

I also know there are a LOT of things and avenues in place to help people who can't afford it.

We'll fix it because the American people insist on it.

I don't think the "poorest citizens" in Canada have it very good, either. It's just never good to be poor no matter what, and that needs to change. One of the best ways to make that change is to improve what people are paid, and we're working on that, AND to help small businesses, which I am happy to see seemed of great importance and was mentioned by both Bush and our governor in Utah. So, I'm happy about that. I'll have more leeway in my small business.

Small business is certainly one way to help people in America.

The healthcare system here isn't broken, and it's not impossible to improve it. We're working on it. Unlike many people and places we don't throw up our hands in despair. Well, at least conservatives don't, lol.

Healthcare IS based on need here. We work and help people who NEED it. AND, like I said, things will improve there because we insist.

Unlike most countrires Americans don't like to depend on the government. I think that's a big reason for the difference. We like to go it alone as much as possible. We are mavericks (but we truly know how to come together, too, that's proven time and time again). So, we'll dealing with a different mindset in America than anywhere else and other countries don't understand it and they are prejudiced as a result. Really sad.

Yes, I think Americans are going to start feeling oppressed, lol.

Anyway, it's not broken. Don't get that impression. People want to improve it. I hope, I hope, I hope that Bush does bring down the cost of healthcare and help everyone to get it. The big difference really is that Americans don't LIKE to depend on government like you do. We'll see what happens.

My husband and I had a discussion about places like Iraq and Russia yesterday and we realize that is one of the top reasons that democracy doesn't work in many of these countries, because they DEPEND ON THE GOVERNMENT. They LIKE to. They definitely don't have the mindset Americans do, the mavericks, the cowboys. We know how to win and be the best.

 

[dandy]

I don't believe and I don't agree. I've been to Canada and frankly, I thought you had a worse quality of life. Your cities are dirty, not very well planned out, and I've heard they have many problems.

You just really cannot judge an entire country on a few things, a few people, a few cities, a few areas in a few cities.

didn't you just judge the entire country of canada based on your visit/s here? out of curiosity, where did you visit? sure, we have our share of problems, just like everywhere else. but overall, i feel like one of the luckiest people on earth to live here--i have a roof over my head, food on my table, good friends that i'm free to visit as i choose, i can walk around outside with out fear, and i am eternally thankful for our medicare system--without it i would not be alive today.

but i digress... instead of splitting hairs like this, let's both be thankful we live in countries that for the most part allow us to live in relative safety and freedom.

Canada is not better, and it is NOT noble and decent to look down on Americans.

please stop saying that ALL canadians are anti-american, because i can assure you that we're not. i'm not a huge fan of bush, but this isn't indicative of my feelings towards all americans. all of the people i surround myself with see this the same way. generalizations are dangerous and misleading, and never reflect the truth.

 

[U2Traveller]

As I recall, it was the UN Human Development Index which you dismissed as stupid and inaccurate. Could you clarify in what areas you feel the above study is not comprehensive and what areas you feel are biased?

I don't see Americans as oppressed for the simple reason that the United States is the most powerful nation in the world. Certainly individual groups within America are oppressed (the poor, Black people, gay people to name a few) but the country as a whole is not oppressed. Rather than me changing my "policy" towards America, I would suggest you need to reconsider your definition of oppression.

Well, other countries are oppressing Americans. I think YOU should change your definition of it. Bigotry and prejudice and the mob-mentality IS oppression and it looks like the rest of you have all joined together to oppress us. Someone even SAID that Canadians get better service in foreign countries than U.S. citizens do, lol. I don't think that's true for a second, but if it is then it's oppression, and well, hey, less more money for them, I say.

Cleanliness, safety, happiness, quality of life, healthcare...I think they've got it all wrong. And, like I've said before, nothing's broke, and we're always working on fixing it. Unlike other countries we DON'T depend on our government but on ourselves, and we DON'T give up. We ALWAYS fix it. So, until we give up no one can declare we're broken, lol.

 

[U2Traveller]

well alrighty then-i think we have a pretty good idea of what we're dealing with. and i have my doubts as to how far we can progress in our discussion if you choose to be so close minded.

U2Traveller, i can say for myself and a few others here that we were not and do not 'look down on' you. we are merely quoting internationally recognized comprehensive studies. no one is saying les etats-unis is a bad place to live or for that matter, your beloved utah. we are merely pointing to globally respected metrics which place several nations above your own routinely.

but have it as you wish. the truth is what you make of it.

edit: for anyone who might be interested, the un human development report 2004.


this is a compilation of life expectancy at birth, adult literacy rate, combined gross enrolment ratio for primary, secondary and tertiary schools, GDP per capita, life expectancy index, education index, GDP index amongst others...

Wow. That MUST mean it's true. *sarcasm* Nope, I just don't think they're looking at all the facts. I know they're not.

 

[U2Traveller]

I agree that Toronto has problems, and I said that in my post. I just don't think that the number of problems experienced by the previous poster is an accurate portrayal of Canada.

That would be like me saying that Canada is totally safe because I have never been attacked.

Hey, but people from your country have been saying that all day?

They say Americans have a lower quality of life because of one study which is very, very narrow, I'm sure. Don't ya get it?! Really, why don't you listen to an American once in a while. You don't want to because you're too proud and above us? Lol.

You know, really, I hope America is a more humble country.

 

[kobayashi]

Wow. That MUST mean it's true. *sarcasm* Nope, I just don't think they're looking at all the facts. I know they're not.

care to elaborate? enlighten us-seriously? what is it that they're missing?

 

[U2Traveller]

didn't you just judge the entire country of canada based on your visit/s here? out of curiosity, where did you visit? sure, we have our share of problems, just like everywhere else. but overall, i feel like one of the luckiest people on earth to live here--i have a roof over my head, food on my table, good friends that i'm free to visit as i choose, i can walk around outside with out fear, and i am eternally thankful for our medicare system--without it i would not be alive today.

but i digress... instead of splitting hairs like this, let's both be thankful we live in countries that for the most part allow us to live in relative safety and freedom.



please stop saying that ALL canadians are anti-american, because i can assure you that we're not. i'm not a huge fan of bush, but this isn't indicative of my feelings towards all americans. all of the people i surround myself with see this the same way. generalizations are dangerous and misleading, and never reflect the truth.

You are absolutely right that assumptions and generalizations are dangerous, and that's what I've been crowing about here.

And yes, I just wish that no one would say, nah, nah, nah, I'm better than you and just be grateful for what you have and know that others are as well, and to be a little more lenient and tolerant towards Americans...if you don't want us to feel oppressed.

 

[U2Kitten]

The more move to Canada, the better. There's too much damn traffic here anyway!

But what if Canada elects a guy you don't like, you moving back, or finding another country?

 

[U2Traveller]

care to elaborate? enlighten us-seriously? what is it that they're missing?

It doesn't seem they came to Utah and states around me. It just doesn't seem that they're looking at all the factors that make a "good quality of life". They're not looking at a lot of things. And, well, it's a few people's opinions. Of course someone who wants their prejudices supported will gladly suck up to this "study." But, you know what, if it said that the U.S. was number one, I wouldn't think any differently. I wouldn't then go na-na-na-na to you. I'd know that it was JUST A STUPID STUDY and I'm smarter than that. I see that many people have a good quality of life in many parts of the world, and there are many in these same countries that have a poorer quality of life.

I don't get this need to make someone number one, number two, etc. In my eyes everyone is equal. Yes, I am a true egalitarian". No, that is NOT a liberal trait alone.

 

[U2Traveller]

The more move to Canada, the better. There's too much damn traffic here anyway!

But what if Canada elects a guy you don't like, you moving back, or finding another country?

I think someone said something like that earlier. Then next time they'll move to Switzerland, I guess.

Yeah, maybe it would be a good thing to give Canada a bigger population so they can SEE how well we really are handling it. If they think like Canadians then GO, please!

And like I said, well, who needs those types anyway. I don't think they make a country stronger.

 

[kobayashi]

It doesn't seem they came to Utah and states around me. It just doesn't seem that they're looking at all the factors that make a "good quality of life". They're not looking at a lot of things. And, well, it's a few people's opinions. Of course someone who wants their prejudices supported will gladly suck up to this "study." But, you know what, if it said that the U.S. was number one, I wouldn't think any differently. I wouldn't then go na-na-na-na to you. I'd know that it was JUST A STUPID STUDY and I'm smarter than that. I see that many people have a good quality of life in many parts of the world, and there are many in these same countries that have a poorer quality of life.

I don't get this need to make someone number one, number two, etc. In my eyes everyone is equal. Yes, I am a true egalitarian". No, that is NOT a liberal trait alone.

note, since you are so intelligent, you will read my posts and realize the last thing i am doing is going 'na na na'.

though you still havent elaborated on any specifics of what it is theyre missing, i'll flesh out the study for you. it is not opinion-it is numbers: literacy rates, GDP per capita, school enrollment for primary, secondary and tertiary. things of that sort.

once again, i am not saying the u.s. is bad. its a great nation.

i am merely pointing you to this very respected study. instead of reacting to it with abhorrence, you could consider ways to improve those numbers, especially in light of the fix-it spirt you say your nation has. you could look at it in terms of global competitiveness concerning those looking to establish a business. it attracts investment to some extent.

but, whatever you want.

 

[U2Kitten]

Yeah, maybe it would be a good thing to give Canada a bigger population so they can SEE how well we really are handling it.

That's another good point, the US population is much larger and more diverse than Canada's so we have more to deal with. Things that work for Canada might not work here, it would be too big of a task (such as health care, which even the liberal darling Hillary failed to deliver after she had been put in charge under Clinton!)

 

[U2Traveller]

note, since you are so intelligent, you will read my posts and realize the last thing i am doing is going 'na na na'.

though you still havent elaborated on any specifics of what it is theyre missing, i'll flesh out the study for you. it is not opinion-it is numbers: literacy rates, GDP per capita, school enrollment for primary, secondary and tertiary. things of that sort.

once again, i am not saying the u.s. is bad. its a great nation.

i am merely pointing you to this very respected study. instead of reacting to it with abhorrence, you could consider ways to improve those numbers, especially in light of the fix-it spirt you say your nation has. you could look at it in terms of global competitiveness concerning those looking to establish a business. it attracts investment to some extent.

but, whatever you want.

My business is fine no matter what that study is. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. The U.S. is still very much in demand and a brand name. And, anyway, my particular business isn't planning on going international, unless, of course, I move to Ireland to be close to my friend, Bono.

Anyway, wow, it's a "respected study" now. By who? Sorry, but that still doesn't make it legit. There are a lot of "respected" things that aren't totally accurate. Just like there are a lot of "respected" people who aren't perfect. Bono is "respected". Is he perfect and right all the time? And does he presume to know everything about America? No. Neither should you. Nor should you presume to know everything about Americans.

Numbers can be inaccurate and deceiving. But, go right ahead and rely on and depend on those numbers. I tend to go with gut instinct more anyway.