O Canada, We Want to Move to Thee

[U2Traveller]

You know, if a person is so unhappy with their country and the atmosphere of the people around them that they are willing to leave all their friends and family behind and move to a whole new country, I don't think it's whining or wimpy. Would you say that of someone that moved out of a bad part of town because they're afraid of their neighbors? If they took their kids to an area with better schools in order to try and give them a better life? They had the choice to stay and fight for change, too.

Usually I just lurk here and don't post, but I feel especially strongly about this.

It depends. If they're running away from something, it could be wimpy. Things aren't THAT bleak here.

 

[U2Traveller]

Indeed, U2traveller, the lack of structure on these spincases will allow them to self-implode, and perhaps we can get some stability going for many years to come.

By the way, U2traveller, GibsonGirl or anyone else, anyone hear that U2 b-side 'Are you gonna wait forever'? I'm dying to know what it sounds like even though it's only a b-side... but I loved the songs 'Summer Rain' and 'Always' as b sides, so it could be great!

-- Nicholas --

I haven't heard that song. I also like Summer Rain and Always. Their B-sides are always interested and worth owning. They show a side of U2 most don't see if you just go for the albums and popular stuff.

 

[DaveC]

Will everyone emigrating move in with DaveC and his mom?

Excuse me...?

 

[Michael Griffiths]

No, I think Michael Griffiths would probably let me crash with him.

Absolutey

 

[GibsonGirl]

Are you suggesting Americans have a worse quality of life?

In certain areas, yes. I live in Newfoundland... We've had a grand total of about two or three murders here over this past year, and that's considered to be a lot. If you compare crime in Canada as a whole to the US, there's an obvious difference. In Canada, we also have much more social assistance available for people who need it.

The general impression I get from many people I know who are American, is that they live in fear. I haven't feared for my life in Canada from the moment I set foot in the country. Even in Toronto.

So while Canada does have its drawbacks, I think people do enjoy a higher standard of living here.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Hi GibsonGirl. I know you said that's a general impression, but I don't live in fear because I live in the States. I certainly don't fear for my life on a daily basis, the last time I possibly did was getting on a plane-fear of an accident, not terrorism. Or crossing a busy city street. My fear, whatever it might happen to be about, is fear of what other human beings are capable of doing to me.

I don't think that has anything to do w/ where I live, it's just a general fear. Granted I don't live in a large city but a relatively safer suburb. Man's inhumanity to man has no geographical boundaries. Obviously w/ more availability of weapons and different laws, things are different here, so that is true in that sense.

 

[U2Traveller]

In certain areas, yes. I live in Newfoundland... We've had a grand total of about two or three murders here over this past year, and that's considered to be a lot. If you compare crime in Canada as a whole to the US, there's an obvious difference. In Canada, we also have much more social assistance available for people who need it.

The general impression I get from many people I know who are American, is that they live in fear. I haven't feared for my life in Canada from the moment I set foot in the country. Even in Toronto.

So while Canada does have its drawbacks, I think people do enjoy a higher standard of living here.

I don't agree at all. Where do your friends live? I do not fear every day of my life, and I see a lot of social assistance around here, and the crime where I live is relatively low. I live in a great state.

There are some areas of the U.S. I wouldn't want to live, either, but Utahns definitely have a high quality of life, as do many of the states around me. So, I think you're wrong, very wrong.

I'd say it's quite the other way around.

I want Social Security to be fixed, and for every person to be paid more, and for health insurance to be fixed, and I don't believe in owning guns and wish no one could BUT I can see people's point for being able to own them.

Americans have a great quality of life, and Utahns better than most states. Larger cities often have more problems.

Maybe your friends are just a little bit negative or hysterical, or live in bad areas of the country. Don't base their views as the way things are and how people feel as a whole.

 

[GibsonGirl]

GibsonGirl (I don't know how to use that white background quote thing?) - my point is, you would take a Liberal government and I'd take a Conserative government, and that is our right, is it not?

Point taken. Though, I do disagree with your claim that we Liberals are "fucking assholes to other human beings." In fact, we are the complete opposite. Left-wing views promote social equality. Times change, as do people and ideas. If people do not adjust their moral values to suit the times, they are the ones who come off looking like the "fucking assholes." Who are we to say what one person can or cannot do, based upon factors such as sexual orientation? If homosexuals want to marry each other, so be it. And this opinion is coming from me, a heterosexual Christian. Then there's the whole issue of stem cell research. If stem cell research could have the potential to lead to an improvement of the lives of hundreds upon thousands of people, why the hell aren't we allowing people to benefit from it? To me, the whole "oh you're destroying the potential for human life" is like saying "people can't use birth control, because you're eliminating the potential for human life." True, this all boils down to individual opinions, but it's frustrating to see so many close-minded viewpoints in people today. And don't even get me started on the war...

Anyway, I'm rambling now. By the way, if you want to use the quote feature, just place the text you want between quote tags, like so:

[ quote ] blah blah text goes here [ /quote ]

Just remove the spaces before the brackets and it should work out fine.

Originally posted by cujo

Had Stephen Harper won this past election, I would have wholly considered a relocation of residence.

Oh, same. The current Conservatives we have floating around the House of Commons are actually quite frightening, Harper in particular. He is the spitting image of George Bush, except far more slimy.

 

[U2Traveller]

Conservatives ALSO promote equality and peace. I am conservative and I am egalitarian, and I voted for Kerry.

 

[GibsonGirl]

I don't agree at all. Where do your friends live? I do not fear every day of my life, and I see a lot of social assistance around here, and the crime where I live is relatively low. I live in a great state.

Didn't say you had to agree with me, I was just stating my opinion. Don't take it personally.

And trust me, I didn't just grab my opinion out of the air. I never said the standard of living in the US was bad, I'm just saying that Canada's standard is slightly higher. In every economics/social studies course I've ever taken, it has been labled as fact.

Some quotes:

The United Nations ranked Canada fourth on its Human Development Index in 2004. Canada has established a reputation for outstanding living conditions, earning the UN's top ranking for seven consecutive years, from 1994 to 2000. The country's standard of living, health care system, educational attainment, housing, cultural and recreational facilities, level of public safety and tourist opportunities are all of an exceptionally high quality.

http://www.2ontario.com/welcome/coca_801.asp

(Note that in that chart, Canada is ranked four slots higher than the US)



The standard of living in the United States is one of the highest in the world by almost any measure. On measures such as the UN Human Development Index the United States is always in the top ten. However, the United States is consistently ranked lower than Scandinavia, Canada, Australia, and Japan.

While the United States' mean wealth is the highest of any major country, its median wealth is considerably lower. Most of the extra money in the United States is the result of a much wealthier top section of the population. If the top five percent of the population is not included the average Canadian would be wealthier than the average American.

In terms of population with education beyond high school the United States is second only to Canada, and well ahead of most of Europe.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Standard-of-living-in-the-United-States

 

[disco2blue]

Hello Again, Nicholas here.

First off, I'd like to thank Kristie and Cujo for their feedback, and I politely disagree.

The missile defence plan is not that simple to generalize so negatively. To believe that this concept of defence is not essential is dangerous. North Korea and Iran, and potentially several other organized countries, despise our 'sinner' culture and only want complete destruction of those who are not them (once again similar to extreme Leftists), it is not that easy and it is not that simple to condemn the entire idea of defence.
There is not much else to say about this matter, we disagree, we see the world differently, and that is our human nature by default.
As for GibsonGirl's slightly naive perception about Toronto and Newfoundland in relation to America, perhaps I can give another Canadian's perspective.
There are more murders than 2 or 3 in Newfoundland, and there are around 50 - 60 murders in Toronto, where I live, and most of those are gun related. But I will delve deeper into the deceiving fallacy of judging quality of life strictly based on murder statistics.
Newfoundland's quality of life cannot be determined solely by murder rates. My mother is from 'The Rock', and it is a beautiful place. However there are many problems in the quality of life in Newfoundland. There is an epidemic of Oxycontin addiction, a very powerful time-released narcotic used for cancer patients. Also, Newfoundland has one of the highest rates of Alcohol consumpstion and alcohol related illnesses and deaths. Domestic violence is common in Newfoundland, and that can perhaps be tied into the drug and alcohol problems the province faces. Unemployment rates are higher in Newfoundland than any other province in Canada. The fishing industry, previously its economic impetus, is dried up, largey owing to the Liberal government's inaction to foreign over-fishing - yes, GibsonGirl, I'm sure many fisherman would still vote Liberal just like you, because as Canadians we sure are suckers for abuse. Furthermore, Newfoundland has the second highest cancer rate in Canada as alcoholism does tend to breed other bad habits, such as Cigarette smoking.
As for Toronto - you feel safe where I live? You should live here a little more often before making such a statement. Toronto is turning into a very dirty, gang ridden place. I've been robbed once, assailed by drunks, smashed into by a road enraged motorist, my best friend was stabbed at a club - he is okay thankfully. Of course, stabbings like his case are not even reported fully any more because it is commonplace.
You think that Toronto is so terribly different from American cities? Hey, we have McDonalds, we have CSI on primetime, we have GM plants employing Eastern Ontario, and yes we have all the bad things that come with a 'North American' city - murders, general violence, dirtiness, prostitution, gangs, police brutality, racial tensions, and Snow... brrr!
Anyway, this is just another way of looking at this very typical Canadian snobbery - we're cleaner, safter, better. Hey guess what - we used to be a couple of things, but it is a fact that New York is just as safe and clean as Toronto - I know, I've been to both places.
Alas, Canada is united by our slogan 'We don't have as many murders as the U.S.'. That's good. But GibsonGirl, you can see that there are many other determining issues in a society. Let us not forgot, as it is stated right on our own Cigarette packages, second to Tobacco deaths is suicides. Yes, Canada has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, unfortunately. If we're perfect, I guess some people just don't feel perfect, huh?

Anyway, U2traveller, thanks for the song input, we'll hear it soon enough - and also, feel free to e mail me if you would like, and that goes for anyone too. You can reach me at:

zoou2@hotmail.com

Cool eh???

--- Nicholas ---

 

[U2Traveller]

Didn't say you had to agree with me, I was just stating my opinion. Don't take it personally.

And trust me, I didn't just grab my opinion out of the air. I never said the standard of living in the US was bad, I'm just saying that Canada's standard is slightly higher. In every economics/social studies course I've ever taken, it has been labled as fact.

Some quotes:

The United Nations ranked Canada fourth on its Human Development Index in 2004. Canada has established a reputation for outstanding living conditions, earning the UN's top ranking for seven consecutive years, from 1994 to 2000. The country's standard of living, health care system, educational attainment, housing, cultural and recreational facilities, level of public safety and tourist opportunities are all of an exceptionally high quality.

http://www.2ontario.com/welcome/coca_801.asp

(Note that in that chart, Canada is ranked four slots higher than the US)



The standard of living in the United States is one of the highest in the world by almost any measure. On measures such as the UN Human Development Index the United States is always in the top ten. However, the United States is consistently ranked lower than Scandinavia, Canada, Australia, and Japan.

While the United States' mean wealth is the highest of any major country, its median wealth is considerably lower. Most of the extra money in the United States is the result of a much wealthier top section of the population. If the top five percent of the population is not included the average Canadian would be wealthier than the average American.

In terms of population with education beyond high school the United States is second only to Canada, and well ahead of most of Europe.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Standard-of-living-in-the-United-States

I'm sorry, but one "study" doesn't satisfy me.

All I know is that I have great opportunity here. I don't fear. I can be a small business owner and I can make a lot of money doing it. The opportunity for every American is there...and those who are lost, well, they need to be helped.

As for health...if Americans have health problems it's their own dang fault, not because the system is broken. We have the best healthcare in the world.

I believe that America is the best place to live for a lot of reasons, MANY that weren't even mentioned in that "study". Utah and some of its cities are consistently ranked one of the best places to live in the U.S. All I know is that I have it very good here in Utah and I have hopes it'll get even better with this new governor.

What's great about America is that if you don't like something you can change it. There's the opportunity and ability to do so.

America is a HUGE country, you must remember, for its population we are actually doing better than about anyone, if you ask me. I don't know about Japan. But, I seriously do not believe Canada has a better lifestyle. Not from what I've seen and heard.

 

[GibsonGirl]

Conservatives ALSO promote equality and peace. I am conservative and I am egalitarian, and I voted for Kerry.

Good for you. (Didn't mean that in a smartass way. ) That response I made to disco2blue wasn't referring to ALL conservatives as close-minded people. I know that people have different views on equality, regardless of which side of the political spectrum they fall under. Hell, there are probably a fair number of liberals who agree with some of the moral values that have sent other liberals off into hissy fits.

Urgh, I think I'll just back out of this entire discussion entirely. Like my mother has always said, when people start discussing politics, all they end up doing is bitching at each other. And I'm normally not a very bitchy person.

 

[U2Traveller]

I don't know where these people are getting statistics or why Canadians think they have a better quality of life, but I think it's wrong.

And, they obviously haven't "studied" cities like my city which even people from Canada have remarked to me is a beautiful city and the CLEANEST city they've ever seen.

 

[disco2blue]

Hello GibsonGirl, I would like to thank you for the lesson in quotation.
Also, I would like to apologize if I become seemingly angry at you at times, but this is what politics does.

Also I think we are encountering a problem - the division between conservatives and liberals is too black and white. I don't care if homosexuals marry, and I'm pro-choice for the most part. I also think Stem Cell research should be given more freedom. You see what I mean? Because I say I support Bush, or certain aspects of Conversatism, it does not mean I can be lumped into these assumptions. I only think that structure, integrity and purpose are the only ways to run an effective society, if you keep on blurring the lines, with no definite boundaries or moral code, then you have a very weak solidarity and it is then simply about the individual, not about what's best for society or the country. You need rules, just like a sport needs guidelines to assure there is no chaos - you can't just go around doing what you want when you want because 'I feel like it', could you imagine anarchy?
Also, GibsonGirl, to say that Liberals/Mooore/Democrats are the exact opposite of hateful, scornful people - it is very upsetting to me because you obviously did not really take any points from what I was saying about the hostility and judgement factors that I clearly stated - Myself incurring such hatred, and the threads of hatred started by Liberals - these cannot be denied, but I guess they sure as hell can be ignored.

I do not think I can write more about politics for much longer, it is a very hopeless feeling to not get across to people, and it is very depressing to know that human beings are placing ideals, ideas, and personal ego over basic respect for others.

Nicholas

zoou2@hotmail.com

 

[U2Traveller]

Hello GibsonGirl, I would like to thank you for the lesson in quotation.
Also, I would like to apologize if I become seemingly angry at you at times, but this is what politics does.

Also I think we are encountering a problem - the division between conservatives and liberals is too black and white. I don't care if homosexuals marry, and I'm pro-choice for the most part. I also think Stem Cell research should be given more freedom. You see what I mean? Because I say I support Bush, or certain aspects of Conversatism, it does not mean I can be lumped into these assumptions. I only think that structure, integrity and purpose are the only ways to run an effective society, if you keep on blurring the lines, with no definite boundaries or moral code, then you have a very weak solidarity and it is then simply about the individual, not about what's best for society or the country. You need rules, just like a sport needs guidelines to assure there is no chaos - you can't just go around doing what you want when you want because 'I feel like it', could you imagine anarchy?
Also, GibsonGirl, to say that Liberals/Mooore/Democrats are the exact opposite of hateful, scornful people - it is very upsetting to me because you obviously did not really take any points from what I was saying about the hostility and judgement factors that I clearly stated - Myself incurring such hatred, and the threads of hatred started by Liberals - these cannot be denied, but I guess they sure as hell can be ignored.

I do not think I can write more about politics for much longer, it is a very hopeless feeling to not get across to people, and it is very depressing to know that human beings are placing ideals, ideas, and personal ego over basic respect for others.

Nicholas

zoou2@hotmail.com

Hey, Nicholas, I agree with you totally. I also think this is why conservatives are best in government. I can't imagine a world ruled by liberals! It'd be anarchy and chaos.

 

[disco2blue]

U2Traveller, just in case you didn't see it? I wrote about some stats and facts about Canadain quality of life just a little earlier, a little further up, I think you may like a very candid and different perspective.

-- Nicholas --

zoou2@hotmail.com

 

[anitram]

I don't know where these people are getting statistics or why Canadians think they have a better quality of life, but I think it's wrong.

From the most comprehensive UN study, which has been quoted here ad nauseum by Republican posters when the USA was above Canada.

Watch for Canada to rise even higher this year, as Bush tanks your dollar and ours is skyrocketing.

There are 6 billion people in the world, and when I go to their lands, I can proudly say I am a Canadian, and not a single one considers me nor my country a threatening, arrogant bully.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

In spite of everything, I still proudly say I'm an American

I guess I'm wrong to feel that way

People feel that way about my country, but there's really nothing threatening or arrogant about me . I feel sorry for someone who would make that sort of supposition w/ out getting to know a person first.

I don't mean to direct that at you anitram, so pls don't take it that way . I'm just picking up on that portion of what you said.

 

[anitram]

Look, I agree with what you are saying.

But you need to look at reality - go abroad, and see what people will say to you. I have a North American accent and when you go abroad, people immediately assume you are an American. I always try to correct that notion immediately, because believe me, the service you receive is 200 times better immediately. I cannot tell you how many times I've been to Europe and been told "You're not American? Oh, thank goodness!"

 

[cujo]

The missile defence plan is not that simple to generalize so negatively. To believe that this concept of defence is not essential is dangerous. North Korea and Iran, and potentially several other organized countries, despise our 'sinner' culture and only want complete destruction of those who are not them (once again similar to extreme Leftists), it is not that easy and it is not that simple to condemn the entire idea of defence.

While defense is a concern, the method by which some are pursuing preventative measures is very ill-considered. This is evident in the fact that an archaic and dated program was brought to the table to address a perceived escalation. To genuinely accept the application of ideas out of their intended context is an inherently more dangerous proposition.

At its core, that's the predominant point of concern with respect to the current iteration of the conservative party in Canada. Falling back on solutions to problems that no longer exist is not the most productive way to approach the issue of defense. I'm not proposing that the Alliance should strive to change their platform, but manifesting new ideas might foster more success for Harper's party in the polls. Having lived in Alberta for most of my life and Texas for a few years, I do believe my insight is not entirely unfounded on this topic.

 

[disco2blue]

. I cannot tell you how many times I've been to Europe and been told "You're not American? Oh, thank goodness!"

Anitram, you are exactly the type of person I despise - a person who think the racism against Americans is justified. You think that people with that kind of thinking are really cool, huh? So I guess Paul Bernardo, school girl killer, is better than the average 'American', because he's Canadian. You think that is a ridiculous example? Well it is completely in balance with the type of stupidity and ignorance you speak about around the world, and people like YOU perpetuate it. Sick freak.

--- Nicholas ---

zoou2@hotmail.com

 

[disco2blue]

Cujo, once again thank you for your input, and you put things across very well and professionally (perhaps unlike my last post scolding Anitram, I just completely lost my temper).
I do believe you have very well-founded views on the missile defence issue, probably better than mine, but yes my most primitive notion is that defence should be done in such a way as to not cause more harm than good, but nonetheless be at the forefront of our concerns. Afterall, I do realize that a race for arms and nuclear programs can do nothing at all positive for the world, but at the same time, the technology is out there, everyone is capable because the knowledge has been eternalized - we need to make sure we can stop a random, crazed attack by those who believe they are going to heaven in a suicidal glory of martyrdom.
Anyway, thanks for you posts, I enjoy them!

--- Nicholas ---

zoou2@hotmail.com

 

[cujo]

If you had read Anitram's post without a malicious pretense, you would probably notice that she was explaining a perception that is prevalent outside of North America. She did not assign value to that belief, or imply support of it. Disco2blue, I suggest before you continue making further assumptions and disparaging comments about longstanding members, you should actually read their posts. It's a courtesy that everyone deserves. Even those that are heavy on the rhetoric (myself included).



It's not my attempt to be confrontational or show disrespect, sometimes the nature of internet posting removes the inflection of one's voice. On a related note... right about now, we could all use some kraft dinner.



Edit: I had not seen your response prior to my post, but I think you cleared up your post about anitram to an extent. We both have experienced the danger of impulse posting it seems.

 

[indra]

A question.

Why when someone from any other country says "I would like to move to the US" do so many people offer encouragement and support, yet if a citizen of the US says "I would like to move to <insert country here>" the same people call that person a wuss, whimp, whiner, spineless, etc? Really. Can someone tell me what the big difference is (without the jingoistic crap, please)?

 

[anitram]

disco2blue, what the hell is the matter with you? Did you not read the part in my post where I said I agree with Mrs. Springsteen that generalizations are not right?

But thanks for the personal attack. You come across as a charming guy.

 

[DaveC]

Anitram, you are exactly the type of person I despise - a person who think the racism against Americans is justified. You think that people with that kind of thinking are really cool, huh? So I guess Paul Bernardo, school girl killer, is better than the average 'American', because he's Canadian. You think that is a ridiculous example? Well it is completely in balance with the type of stupidity and ignorance you speak about around the world, and people like YOU perpetuate it. Sick freak.

--- Nicholas ---

zoou2@hotmail.com

Now listen here!!

What the hell makes you think you can come in here and act like you own this god damn place? Where the fuck do you get the balls?

anitram is one of the most respected posters on this whole damn board. You have what...8 posts? anitram has definitely been consistent and been right on the money with most things he/she has said.

You took that post completely out of context and flew off the handle at someone whom I have the utmost respect for. You waltzed right on in here and started acting like you own this god damned place, like we should respect you and agree with every thing that comes out of your fat mouth just because you've graced us with your presence.

YOU are exactly a person I despise. Idiotic and prejudiced. Now go somewhere else, and don't show your ass back in here before you learn to fucking read, dipshit.

You owe anitram a PUBLIC apology.

 

[disco2blue]

I retract all comments of personal attack, and I deeply apologize for reacting the way I did to anitram.

I joined this site because I was a U2 fanatic first and foremost, but when I see the injustice of such anti-american threads, I was compelled to post. Mistake.

Hopefully, if I'm allowed to post any more, I can simply talk about B sides, albums, tours, etc.

My girlfriend is American, originally from Tennesse. She should have the right to travel the world without people hating her because of her government. Obviously most people think not. That's okay though, she's strong, she doesn't try hide the presence of her American blood. I commend her.

Still, when all is said and done, the personal attack was uncalled for against anitram, and I really do feel terrible that I broke character and let my anger spill over. I wish I did not type those things, but it is too late, but I'm the one who has to live with the fact I acted like those whom I despise - that's the worst feeling of all, and anitram, I wish you the best in life.

I hope my apology can be accepted.

--- Nicholas ---

zoou2@hotmail.com

 

[DaveC]

 

[Anthony]

FYMers;

ENOUGH.

disco2blue, your comment was altogether too personal and uncalled for. I won't force you to apologise, however, should you address this (as it already has caused a stir) I would recommend it be addressed via an apology. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

DaveC, your reaction does not help things either. Please control your temper or this thead WILL go to hell.

I will ask BOTH of you to keep a cordial tone. I will also ask ALL posters to keep a cool-headed approach to their debate/venting/rants. I don't care what you rant about, as long as you are respectful.

I have issued far too many warnings this evening. If you ignore my warnings, this thread will be closed forthwith.

Ant.

P.S - Edited to say thanks for the apologies. That is most welcomed. However, I stand by what I said earlier. Will everyone PLEASE calm down.