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Old 11-05-2004, 01:50 PM   #196
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Hello everyone, I just checked this thread today and found an influx of new posts, some intelligent, others just speaking through unbridled passion, as I got in trouble for earlier. Anyway, I will just throw in my view again, and perhaps reiterate and elaborate some points that maybe came off as too general.

First off, U2Traveller, I would like to thank you for taking into consideration and understanding my posts. I believe you are a very intelligent person and we seem to have a similar viewpoint on this big issue of America in relation to the rest of the world. I believe everyone who has posted here is intelligent, it is only our convictions that separate us.

Spinninghead77 responded to my view about Canada not being perfectly safe, as no country is. I mentioned statistical problems for Canada, namely Toronto and Newfoundland. I also mentioned my personal experiences with crime in Toronto. Spinninghead77 said 'I was hanging around in the wrong neighbourhoods'. My friend who was stabbed, he was downtown at a club. Stabbings are common in Toronto, as any major city. I was robbed near my place of residence, in a mixture of middle class and lower class. It happened around 10 p.m., coming home from a friend's house who lived nearby. I was attacked by a group of people, about five, and suffered some scrapes and bruises, no big deal - the worst that happened was my wallet was stolen. I wasn't hanging around a wrong neighbourhood. I was in front of my house - maybe I can't afford to 'live downtown' in a 'perfectly safe' environment, or have the freedom to choose a richer, more luxurious area, but again the attack on me shouldn't be justified because I somehow deserved it by living 'in the wrong neighbourhood'. Dangerous and secure neighbourhoods; that is it exactly, this is what I meant - Toronto isn't above New York, and nor is it below it. It is simply a typical North American city of relative largeness, and that is my point - I never said Toronto is worse than American cities, but that wasn't the gist of it anyway, the bottomline is that Toronto is not that much better either. Toronto used to be, you know that too Spinninghead77, but New York was also previously a deathtrap. You can't live off of a reputation - what is happening now is the relevant part. I wasn't with my friend when he was stabbed, because he was in the notoriously testosterone driven clubbing district, where shootings take place and fights of all sorts - not because they're crazy 'Canadians', but because they are citizens of the competitive, violent North American male species.
I don't feel constantly at threat in Toronto. I don't feel at threat in New York either. Toronto no longer has the right to hold condescending ideas that we are greater than the cities within the United States. Simple as that. In my previous posts, I wasn't being naive and saying, 'you see, I was robbed - all of Canada is terrible'. I was saying, hey, I was robbed, Toronto is only a normal, growing big city. End of story, nothing great and nothing sorrowful. Spinninghead77, you mentioned 'wrong people, wrong areas' - exactly, the same elements of balance that's found in any other city North or South of the border.

Also, to comment on the continuing battle between 'ranked cities', basically how many more countries are 'above' the United Sates, particularly Canada - my view is that these overall, collective studies may or may not be relevant to specific sections of a country. A terrible area in the U.S. may be so terrible in all statistical aspects, that it brings down the average goodness of the whole state. In this case, then, these reports shouldn't be used to judge the most important elements of quality of life - the personal, exlusive experience and area of a certain group of people. Salty Lake city for example, where U2traveller is from doesn't need to read the 'reports' to see if they are living well or not - they are living it every day, and if they are happy and believe it is the best place on eath, then that is more relevant and more powerful than any 'numerical manipulation' of someone's societal abode. We are always trying to mathematically control every facet of life, definite answers by way of science and calculations. However, you cannot measure someone's experience and love for their homeland with definitives. The world, a country, is filled with living subjective beings, and if you want to know about their home and if you want to understand their 'quality' of life, then you go talk to them, you interact, you go there and visit - you don't interpret numbers and then discard someone's experienced outlook because you think the mystery of the world can be summed up with some text and numbers compiling a list. That is my opinion, and that explains why when U2traveller says she believes Utah is the best place on earth, I believe her and I am happy for her. If someone says Toronto is the best place on earth for them, that is just as relevant, and I am glad for them. But when people, as us Canadians are guilty of (And no, not all Canadians, but definitely the majority), say, 'I live here it is the best place on earth - you live in America, what a dumpy place' - that is purely uncalled for and disrespectful. It also shows an arrogance and perhaps insecurity. Why recycle the stereotype and demented glee of proclaiming Canada is 'better', or Canadians are better people than Americans. Supposedly we are a humble, modest country? These perpetuated sentiments explain why we still hold on to the past, when Toronto used to be the best city on earth - when currently we are just a pretty damn good city. I do still like living here very much. However, I can enjoy living here, and be unashamed of being Canadian without putting down my friends and neighbours to the south of me. Unfortunately, we are anti-American for the most part - not all of us, but most of those who are not anti-American sure as hell are not very offended often. Apathy is just as bad as antagonism when you hope to change a dentrimental characteristic.
Canadians are anti-American in blatant ways too. Spinninghead77, I'm sure you recall the Liberal MP, Parrish, a very hateful woman who has said 'Damn Americans, I hate those bastards'. Yes, U2traveller, our Canadian politicians are that open about their hatred of you, your family and friends. And no one here seems deeply offened, and she goes unpunished by the way. She is a major political figure, she is a representative of our current government, and she incessantly makes anti-American comments - and you know what, when she does, her Popularity grows even further. U2traveller, and whoever else that cares about their American heritage, this is commonplace in our government. Furthermore, we have a distasteful Beer commercial, for Canadian beer. It is a 'typical' Canadian man, listing what he does and does not do. He doesn't snap his fingers at the bartender, or rudely speaks to anyone in his Canadian partied-out bar - You know why he is elegant and polite? You guessed, 'I am Canadian (not American)'. The message is essentially delivered to Americans, saying, you are all finger-snapping, rude and callous people. Yes, our inferiority complex and ironic arrogance is everywhere in our media and political spectrum.
I attend University in Toronto. I have been heckled, as I mentioned before, verbally assaulted, because I sometimes speak my mind and defend America from the usual Tutorial class orgy of anti-Americanism, teachers and students alike. This is no isolated sentiment, it's actually a given personality trait of Canadian university students. I occasionally wear a sweater, with an American patch on the side of my sleeve, my girlfriend bought it for me in Tennesses. I have been heckled by students I've never seen before - 'go home, get a new country', 'terrorist', 'redneck', 'fucking asshole,' etc. Not a random act, but fairly consisent throughout the year whenever I decide to wear my sweater - and I do, and I wear it because I will not be intimidated - Ever. It is all very reflective of the Commercials, our political leaders - we do have an amazing solidarity, and the number one pastime in Canada, besides hockey, is bashing Americans inside out. By the way, we're allowed to say damn Americans, we hate them, etc., but if you happen to state something like 'damn Africans', or any other nationality, we can be charged with hate crimes. Certainly an interesting logic we have currently in Canada.
Anyway, these are just my thoughts and experiences, sprinkled with undeniable facts, to explain better where I am coming from and why I go against the generally free-flowing hostile arrogance in Canada. U2traveller, and like I said, whoever else is even remotely proud of their nationality - this is Canada's problem, 'our quality of life', is fine, it's great - but is it proper that we use our healthy life spans to look down upon Americans, and condemn them, and openly hate them? No it is not, and that is why I refuse to give up the fight to change our ways, because I love Canada, and we need to improve our attitude and ethics, regardless of some list that preaches who is living nice and dandy.

I also of course love the United States of America.

Thank you to all who read this post and took into consideration any or all points.

--- Nicholas ---

zoou2@hotmail.com
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:51 PM   #197
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U2traveller. In this thread I made a point about how one of the positive things about Canada is that things like 'gay marriage' don't show up on the ballot, and that people are allowed to just choose if they want to be in a gay marriage or not. Your answer was that you like telling the government what to do and that is why US Citizens voted on that issue.

However, in the gay marriage thread you just said that you don't understand why gay marriage was on that ballot and that if people don't agree with it then they should just not be in one.

Huh? Isn't that what I was saying when you blatantly disagreed with me?
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:55 PM   #198
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Originally posted by spinninghead77


Thanks. 2700 posts and I have always been too intimidated to post in FYM before. You guys are scary
Well, U2Traveller sure is. Most people here are a little more levelheaded and not quite so cocksure of themselves.
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:58 PM   #199
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Hmm. I think Lisa has more grace than you.
YOU talk about grace? Are you sure you even know the meaning of the word?

But back to my point...DON'T assume you speak for the US or all the people in the US, because you DO NOT.
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:59 PM   #200
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I believe the way Indra talked to U2traveller is distasteful, condescending, and disrespecful. I am very sickened by Indra's terrible approach.
I lost my temper once, and I apologized sincerely. I think an apology is in order for U2traveller, from Indra. If Indra can't do that - it is definitely no surprise, but still doesn't make it right.

Also, the irony is ridiculous, U2traveller was not speaking on behalf of all Americans, I never got that impression. She was simply an American speaking her mind. But Indra seems to think it speaks a concrete truth? Sounds like you have much self-love that cringingly oozes in your meek points.

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Old 11-05-2004, 01:59 PM   #201
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I'm sure someone else has already stated this, but I'm going to as well.

U2Traveller, you DO NOT NOW, NOR WILL YOU EVER SPEAK FOR ME. I'm a US citizen (and btw Mexicans and Canadians also live in North America, so are also Americans...hell, everyone in north and south amreica are Americans) and I do NOT see things the same way you do. So how exactly do you think you know "the way Americans think and why we do what we do and why we will NEVER be like you" when you don't even know how most of the "Americans" (US citizens) on this board think, act, and feel?

You talk of others arrogance, but your "I know best" attitude is the epitome of arrogance. You dismiss out of hand various studys and surveys, but expect everyone just to blindly accept that what you say is the the absolute truth. You attack other's experiences and views, but expect others to accept what you say as fact, just because you state it.

Well, this US citizen isn't buying your line of bullshit lady. I have my own views, and do not need the likes of you thinking you speak for me, because you certainly do NOT!
I think you hit the nail on the head here.
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Old 11-05-2004, 02:01 PM   #202
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Originally posted by disco2blue
I believe the way Indra talked to U2traveller is distasteful, condescending, and disrespecful. I am very sickened by Indra's terrible approach.
I lost my temper once, and I apologized sincerely. I think an apology is in order for U2traveller, from Indra. If Indra can't do that - it is definitely no surprise, but still doesn't make it right.

Also, the irony is ridiculous, U2traveller was not speaking on behalf of all Americans, I never got that impression. She was simply an American speaking her mind. But Indra seems to think it speaks a concrete truth? Sounds like you have much self-love that cringingly oozes in your meek points.
Careful when you start evaluating members of the forum with little history in this forum.
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Old 11-05-2004, 02:09 PM   #203
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Careful? So a member has a little history, and you all stick together like some closed minded cult?

Wow, the exclusive membership to be being a condesencing dickhead ony takes some time.
Good to know, thanks for the heads up.

Amazing how internet cliques feel so safe their numbers, some kind of shell of ingorance.

--- Nicholas ---

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Old 11-05-2004, 02:11 PM   #204
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and speaking of ignorance, it's incredible to me how U2 fans can be this shallow and simple - I really expected 'a free your mind' for real, not some censorship by way of silly little egos.

--- Nicholas ---

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Old 11-05-2004, 02:13 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally posted by disco2blue
Hello everyone, I just checked this thread today and found an influx of new posts, some intelligent, others just speaking through unbridled passion, as I got in trouble for earlier. Anyway, I will just throw in my view again, and perhaps reiterate and elaborate some points that maybe came off as too general.

First off, U2Traveller, I would like to thank you for taking into consideration and understanding my posts. I believe you are a very intelligent person and we seem to have a similar viewpoint on this big issue of America in relation to the rest of the world. I believe everyone who has posted here is intelligent, it is only our convictions that separate us.

Spinninghead77 responded to my view about Canada not being perfectly safe, as no country is. I mentioned statistical problems for Canada, namely Toronto and Newfoundland. I also mentioned my personal experiences with crime in Toronto. Spinninghead77 said 'I was hanging around in the wrong neighbourhoods'. My friend who was stabbed, he was downtown at a club. Stabbings are common in Toronto, as any major city. I was robbed near my place of residence, in a mixture of middle class and lower class. It happened around 10 p.m., coming home from a friend's house who lived nearby. I was attacked by a group of people, about five, and suffered some scrapes and bruises, no big deal - the worst that happened was my wallet was stolen. I wasn't hanging around a wrong neighbourhood. I was in front of my house - maybe I can't afford to 'live downtown' in a 'perfectly safe' environment, or have the freedom to choose a richer, more luxurious area, but again the attack on me shouldn't be justified because I somehow deserved it by living 'in the wrong neighbourhood'. Dangerous and secure neighbourhoods; that is it exactly, this is what I meant - Toronto isn't above New York, and nor is it below it. It is simply a typical North American city of relative largeness, and that is my point - I never said Toronto is worse than American cities, but that wasn't the gist of it anyway, the bottomline is that Toronto is not that much better either. Toronto used to be, you know that too Spinninghead77, but New York was also previously a deathtrap. You can't live off of a reputation - what is happening now is the relevant part. I wasn't with my friend when he was stabbed, because he was in the notoriously testosterone driven clubbing district, where shootings take place and fights of all sorts - not because they're crazy 'Canadians', but because they are citizens of the competitive, violent North American male species.
I don't feel constantly at threat in Toronto. I don't feel at threat in New York either. Toronto no longer has the right to hold condescending ideas that we are greater than the cities within the United States. Simple as that. In my previous posts, I wasn't being naive and saying, 'you see, I was robbed - all of Canada is terrible'. I was saying, hey, I was robbed, Toronto is only a normal, growing big city. End of story, nothing great and nothing sorrowful. Spinninghead77, you mentioned 'wrong people, wrong areas' - exactly, the same elements of balance that's found in any other city North or South of the border.

Also, to comment on the continuing battle between 'ranked cities', basically how many more countries are 'above' the United Sates, particularly Canada - my view is that these overall, collective studies may or may not be relevant to specific sections of a country. A terrible area in the U.S. may be so terrible in all statistical aspects, that it brings down the average goodness of the whole state. In this case, then, these reports shouldn't be used to judge the most important elements of quality of life - the personal, exlusive experience and area of a certain group of people. Salty Lake city for example, where U2traveller is from doesn't need to read the 'reports' to see if they are living well or not - they are living it every day, and if they are happy and believe it is the best place on eath, then that is more relevant and more powerful than any 'numerical manipulation' of someone's societal abode. We are always trying to mathematically control every facet of life, definite answers by way of science and calculations. However, you cannot measure someone's experience and love for their homeland with definitives. The world, a country, is filled with living subjective beings, and if you want to know about their home and if you want to understand their 'quality' of life, then you go talk to them, you interact, you go there and visit - you don't interpret numbers and then discard someone's experienced outlook because you think the mystery of the world can be summed up with some text and numbers compiling a list. That is my opinion, and that explains why when U2traveller says she believes Utah is the best place on earth, I believe her and I am happy for her. If someone says Toronto is the best place on earth for them, that is just as relevant, and I am glad for them. But when people, as us Canadians are guilty of (And no, not all Canadians, but definitely the majority), say, 'I live here it is the best place on earth - you live in America, what a dumpy place' - that is purely uncalled for and disrespectful. It also shows an arrogance and perhaps insecurity. Why recycle the stereotype and demented glee of proclaiming Canada is 'better', or Canadians are better people than Americans. Supposedly we are a humble, modest country? These perpetuated sentiments explain why we still hold on to the past, when Toronto used to be the best city on earth - when currently we are just a pretty damn good city. I do still like living here very much. However, I can enjoy living here, and be unashamed of being Canadian without putting down my friends and neighbours to the south of me. Unfortunately, we are anti-American for the most part - not all of us, but most of those who are not anti-American sure as hell are not very offended often. Apathy is just as bad as antagonism when you hope to change a dentrimental characteristic.
Canadians are anti-American in blatant ways too. Spinninghead77, I'm sure you recall the Liberal MP, Parrish, a very hateful woman who has said 'Damn Americans, I hate those bastards'. Yes, U2traveller, our Canadian politicians are that open about their hatred of you, your family and friends. And no one here seems deeply offened, and she goes unpunished by the way. She is a major political figure, she is a representative of our current government, and she incessantly makes anti-American comments - and you know what, when she does, her Popularity grows even further. U2traveller, and whoever else that cares about their American heritage, this is commonplace in our government. Furthermore, we have a distasteful Beer commercial, for Canadian beer. It is a 'typical' Canadian man, listing what he does and does not do. He doesn't snap his fingers at the bartender, or rudely speaks to anyone in his Canadian partied-out bar - You know why he is elegant and polite? You guessed, 'I am Canadian (not American)'. The message is essentially delivered to Americans, saying, you are all finger-snapping, rude and callous people. Yes, our inferiority complex and ironic arrogance is everywhere in our media and political spectrum.
I attend University in Toronto. I have been heckled, as I mentioned before, verbally assaulted, because I sometimes speak my mind and defend America from the usual Tutorial class orgy of anti-Americanism, teachers and students alike. This is no isolated sentiment, it's actually a given personality trait of Canadian university students. I occasionally wear a sweater, with an American patch on the side of my sleeve, my girlfriend bought it for me in Tennesses. I have been heckled by students I've never seen before - 'go home, get a new country', 'terrorist', 'redneck', 'fucking asshole,' etc. Not a random act, but fairly consisent throughout the year whenever I decide to wear my sweater - and I do, and I wear it because I will not be intimidated - Ever. It is all very reflective of the Commercials, our political leaders - we do have an amazing solidarity, and the number one pastime in Canada, besides hockey, is bashing Americans inside out. By the way, we're allowed to say damn Americans, we hate them, etc., but if you happen to state something like 'damn Africans', or any other nationality, we can be charged with hate crimes. Certainly an interesting logic we have currently in Canada.
Anyway, these are just my thoughts and experiences, sprinkled with undeniable facts, to explain better where I am coming from and why I go against the generally free-flowing hostile arrogance in Canada. U2traveller, and like I said, whoever else is even remotely proud of their nationality - this is Canada's problem, 'our quality of life', is fine, it's great - but is it proper that we use our healthy life spans to look down upon Americans, and condemn them, and openly hate them? No it is not, and that is why I refuse to give up the fight to change our ways, because I love Canada, and we need to improve our attitude and ethics, regardless of some list that preaches who is living nice and dandy.

I also of course love the United States of America.

Thank you to all who read this post and took into consideration any or all points.

--- Nicholas ---

zoou2@hotmail.com

You sound like a great person, Nicholas. Honestly, I had no idea it was so bad in Canada. I always thought they were our friends and neighbors. It blows me away to see how it truly is. It gives me every reason to stay away. You know, Americans are not like that. They just are not. That is one way Americans are great. At least the Americans and state I know. I live in a great state who loves people and doesn't make it a pasttime to put other people down. It is very, very sad that this is the way Canadians are. Very sad because I thought they were friends. Well, this American is very naive in thinking that the rest of the world is as decent as where I live. I am learning more and more that there is just nowhere in the world LIKE Utah, and nowhere in the world is there people like live in Utah (except for maybe other LDS people all over the world).

Anyway, this news is startling in the least.

You are right, I live in a very great place that I use to hate because it was "boring" and I took it for granted. But hey, boring, as I've grown up has turned out to be a dang good place to live. If being bored is the WORST of my problems around here that is a VERY good barometer of what a good place to live this is.

I am truly and horribly and sickeningly disappointed in Canadians. I am disgusted, too. I will try not to be hateful back, but it is very hard because I am human.

My comfort amidst people like this always is that somehow the way I am, and my willingness to be long-suffering, and my willingness to continue to be a good person despite these things makes me truly the example everyone should live by.

I really admire you Nicholas that you have this view and attitude in Canada, more and more. I admire you that you don't let people push you around. I admire that you're willing to take guff for your friends in the south, and your girlfriend in Tennessee, I'm sure.

I'm truly saddened and sickened by this news, but I believe you because you are very straightforward and honest and I can just see the hate oozing out now from these other posters, so I believe you. I believe you are right.

I am amazed Canada is this way. I always thought you were better than the rest of the world. I did. I see now that you are no better. Do you feel somehow (I'm not talking to you Nicholas) good being this way and joining all the other countries?

Well, I'll be honest, it hurts me being a good and upstanding American citizen and human being, but I've endured hate before because of my religion so I will perservere.

I love my fellow Americans and I hate that they are viewed this way and treated this way and if I had a way I'd warn them all and tell them to stay away.

I feel bad for you all, really. I know my God loves ME. I love Him. I will serve Him, and I know He will always help and love me because I do. It doesn't matter what others think or do. What matters is that God loves me. He is truly my best friend.

I feel really bad for you. I feel bad for everyone.

Now, I wish I had my friend Bono around to hug me and tell me that everything is alright, that not everyone outside of America hates me. From someone as level-headed and civilized as he is that always makes me feel good.
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Old 11-05-2004, 02:17 PM   #206
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I am truly and horribly and sickeningly disappointed in Canadians. I am disgusted, too. I will try not to be hateful back, but it is very hard because I am human.

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Old 11-05-2004, 02:18 PM   #207
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Originally posted by disco2blue
Careful? So a member has a little history, and you all stick together like some closed minded cult?

Wow, the exclusive membership to be being a condesencing dickhead ony takes some time.
Good to know, thanks for the heads up.

Amazing how internet cliques feel so safe their numbers, some kind of shell of ingorance.
There is no "close minded cult" here, but thanks for the label. It appears that the "condesending dickheads" are those who show up and start discussing members and not issues.
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Old 11-05-2004, 02:18 PM   #208
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Originally posted by disco2blue
I believe the way Indra talked to U2traveller is distasteful, condescending, and disrespecful. I am very sickened by Indra's terrible approach.
I lost my temper once, and I apologized sincerely. I think an apology is in order for U2traveller, from Indra. If Indra can't do that - it is definitely no surprise, but still doesn't make it right.

Also, the irony is ridiculous, U2traveller was not speaking on behalf of all Americans, I never got that impression. She was simply an American speaking her mind. But Indra seems to think it speaks a concrete truth? Sounds like you have much self-love that cringingly oozes in your meek points.

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Perhaps you should reread the post by U2Traveller that I responded to.
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Old 11-05-2004, 02:19 PM   #209
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Hmmm...speaking of sweeping generalizations....

Most of my friends are definitely NOT anti-American. If anything, we are critical of American foreign policy (ie, the Bush administration) and how it affects the rest of the world, including Canada.
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Old 11-05-2004, 02:19 PM   #210
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I am truly and horribly and sickeningly disappointed in Canadians. I am disgusted, too. I will try not to be hateful back, but it is very hard because I am human.
How to win the hearts and minds of others.......
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