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Old 06-25-2005, 09:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
The alleged torture was carried out by the Egyptian government. Saudi Arabia also carries out torture on its own citizens and foreigners busted for alleged crimes.
Who put him in Egypt in the first place?


The US does this all the time. They do as they please with every case. Look at Honduran drug-lord Carlos Mata (the guy who offered to pay Honduras' external debt). He was jogging outside his home when foreign officials came and took him right then and there. Now he's sitting in a jail in Texas.
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Old 06-25-2005, 09:52 AM   #17
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Would it be better if I said that Clinton was 100% wrong in doing it but it should be given to Bush carte blanche?

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But it would be a lot better if there was more scrutiny

and accountability of the operations

and the rights of the people to know what their government is up too..


The reason "Rendition" was created and is used is to make sure none of these things can happen.

They won't even admit it takes place.

That is why I said your post was funny.
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Old 06-25-2005, 09:55 AM   #18
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balances the sensitivity of national security and the rights of the people to know what their government is up too.

One of the many shades of grey that exist in the world is the balance between liberties and securities. In principle removing terrorists and interrogating them in secret thus preventing their cohorts to know where they are, what happened to them or what the authorities may know about their behaviour is a useful tool but one that is easily open to abuse. Accountability would be requiring some form of authorisation independent of both the agency and the government. Having an effective system of checks and balances that leave room for this is better than the current system of denying it exists and having zero accountability.
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Old 06-25-2005, 10:07 AM   #19
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
balances the sensitivity of national security and the rights of the people to know what their government is up too.

One of the many shades of grey that exist in the world.
the rights of the people to know what their government is up too.????

what don't you get?


there is no balance here.
by it's very nature there is no oversight

This program has run amuck.


We live in a world with many gradations between black and white.


Much of what is posted in here

is false dichotomies.


i. e. Vote for LBJ or support nuclear holocaust. (before your time.)

Accept my Jesus or Burn in Hell.

With us or against us

Support War in Iraq or coddled terrorists.

Support renditions or we will never know how many lives are saved by these renditions.
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Old 06-25-2005, 10:15 AM   #20
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I hope those CIA agents get busted.
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Old 06-25-2005, 10:16 AM   #21
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How is an argument that says that there can be benefits to the process a false dichotomy?

If I said that if you don't support rendition then you are responsible for people who die in terrorist attacks, that would be a false dichotomy, but making a point that it is impossible to know the benefit and that it can save lives is a legitimate argument. You are creating straw men to argue against; I have not seen anybody declare another "unpatriotic" for opposing war on this forum ~ I have however seen consistent statements that this is what supporters say. It dodges the issues.

Reign in the program, if the oversight is not there then it can be created.

The people are always kept in the dark about national security, part of protecting the people always comes down too keeping secrets from their enemies. Having an openly acknowleded authority that can prevent abuse of this can be an important function in a free society, one that I think is currently lacking in certian circumstances and needs to be created.
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Old 06-25-2005, 10:53 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer at 08:52 AM -
We will never now how many lives are saved by these operations and renditions.

"Those who "abjure" violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
you are telling me the purpose of THIS post is not to support rendition

and imply not doing so prevents - many lives saved
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Old 06-25-2005, 11:47 AM   #23
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bringing the courts into an intelligence operation is a very dangerous game that i really don't think the italians want to be playing...
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Old 06-25-2005, 04:00 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
bringing the courts into an intelligence operation is a very dangerous game that i really don't think the italians want to be playing...
With the speed and efficiaency at which the Italian Justice system works, we'd just now be getting rumors of an Allied landing in Calais..........
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Old 07-18-2005, 02:19 PM   #25
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Originally posted by cardosino


With the speed and efficiaency at which the Italian Justice system works, we'd just now be getting rumors of an Allied landing in Calais..........
yeah... I never heard about this story before here in Italy..
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Old 07-18-2005, 02:30 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by lady luck


yeah... I never heard about this story before here in Italy..
best about it is youve replied that late... cynical, are we?
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Old 07-18-2005, 02:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


People in glass houses

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/fro...63HM1MARK.html
The original article was about Italian investigations and yet you posted a link to a story about Ireland with the comment "people in glass houses." Am I missing something?

In any case, I find the idea that one can't criticise another country unless their own government is above reproach ridiculous.
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