nuts vandalize church - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-12-2005, 11:46 AM   #61
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:13 PM
Are there "criteria" for acceptance or rejecting? It is a fairly yes or no type question.

You've painted a broad picture that "the need to identify as Christian is stronger now than it's ever been”. I’ve countered that increased numbers of people are rejecting this identification – rejecting being followers of Christ. The stats seem to back this up.
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-12-2005, 12:13 PM   #62
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,501
Local Time: 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Are there "criteria" for acceptance or rejecting? It is a fairly yes or no type question.


so Jews reject Christ? Buddhists reject Christ? agnostics reject Christ? (which, i don't think, they can, since it is the nature of agnosticism to be skeptical, but not dismissive)

you've set it up as an either/or proposition; that all religions are defined in opposition to Christ, and that one either accepts or rejects.



Quote:
You've painted a broad picture that "the need to identify as Christian is stronger now than it's ever been”. I’ve countered that increased numbers of people are rejecting this identification – rejecting being followers of Christ. The stats seem to back this up.


you might have a point if, and only if, people who once identified as Christian does not any longer. i think your reject/accept dichotomy applies to only those who have at one point identified as Christian, and not to anyone else.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-12-2005, 02:42 PM   #63
New Yorker
 
Sherry Darling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,857
Local Time: 07:13 PM
Perhaps it would help to distinguish between accepting the moral teachings of Jesus and accepting the lordship and divinity of Christ? I wonder if Irvine might be refering to the former, and NBC to the latter.

Re the Wiki notes that I posted, I guess what struck me in relationship to Verte's orginal post is how far back and how "high up" (if that makes sense) the Whore of Babylon theory goes. Luther and Calvin themselves. Those kids may indeed have mental issues, or sociological economic ones, or whatever. But they didn't get their ideas from nowhere. That was my basic point.

Ok, off to class now.
__________________
Sherry Darling is offline  
Old 10-12-2005, 03:26 PM   #64
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Re the Wiki notes that I posted, I guess what struck me in relationship to Verte's orginal post is how far back and how "high up" (if that makes sense) the Whore of Babylon theory goes. Luther and Calvin themselves. Those kids may indeed have mental issues, or sociological economic ones, or whatever. But they didn't get their ideas from nowhere. That was my basic point.
While I see the connection you've drawn, there seems to be a diverse set of reasons for such negative beliefs about the Catholic Church. And they are not all from fundamentalists.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-12-2005, 07:43 PM   #65
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Actually, you got a "different" Gospel (or is it "another" Gospel, I forget how the commercials frame it).

So it is obviously different than what fundamentalist Christians (and others) believe.
the last two churches I attended were:

Christ Church by the Sea, the United Methodist Church on the Balboa Peninsula.

the woman I was dating was on their board

and in the 90s I attended South Coast Church , non-denominational Christian church located in Irvine, which merged with Mariners in 1998.



You may be referring to the fact that some in my family are LDS.

I did attend their services as a dutiful child,
but not since I moved out on my own in 1973 at age 18.

as I have stated before
I am comfortable describing myself as a follower of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 10-12-2005, 10:54 PM   #66
New Yorker
 
Sherry Darling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,857
Local Time: 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


While I see the connection you've drawn, there seems to be a diverse set of reasons for such negative beliefs about the Catholic Church. And they are not all from fundamentalists.
Indeed, and this Catholic has pointed many of them out even on this thread, if you'll notice. But the subject I was speaking to specifically was the Whore of Babylon theory, not historical, political or even theological differences that Catholics and mainstream Protestants might have.
__________________
Sherry Darling is offline  
Old 10-13-2005, 10:39 AM   #67
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Re the Wiki notes that I posted, I guess what struck me in relationship to Verte's orginal post is how far back and how "high up" (if that makes sense) the Whore of Babylon theory goes. Luther and Calvin themselves. Those kids may indeed have mental issues, or sociological economic ones, or whatever. But they didn't get their ideas from nowhere. That was my basic point.
That's right, someone taught them this stuff. Who might that be? This area is heavily Southern Baptist and many of them believe this.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-13-2005, 11:56 AM   #68
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
That's right, someone taught them this stuff. Who might that be? This area is heavily Southern Baptist and many of them believe this.
The "them" you refer to never spoke of the Whore of Babylon. That is Sherry Darling's connection. According to the new account liked by Pax, the suspects said the protest was not meant to single out Catholics but all forms of "man-made" religion.

So, are they a different "them" than the "them" taught by Southern Baptists?
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-13-2005, 12:50 PM   #69
New Yorker
 
Sherry Darling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,857
Local Time: 07:13 PM
From Pax's article

"We are in end times," Wagner said. "This is Armageddon, the end of all things. Basically, what we're in right now is the appearance of the antichrist who we believe to be Pope Benedict (XVI). ... That's the main reason we chose the Catholic church. It didn't have anything to do with the people in it."


The Pope being the anti-christ is a familar part of the Whore of BAbylon theology/heresey/nuttiness/your word here. The connection was directly from that article.
__________________
Sherry Darling is offline  
Old 10-13-2005, 01:16 PM   #70
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
From Pax's article

"We are in end times," Wagner said. "This is Armageddon, the end of all things. Basically, what we're in right now is the appearance of the antichrist who we believe to be Pope Benedict (XVI). ... That's the main reason we chose the Catholic church. It didn't have anything to do with the people in it."


The Pope being the anti-christ is a familar part of the Whore of BAbylon theology/heresey/nuttiness/your word here. The connection was directly from that article.
That's right. I don't have any idea what church these people are from. They meant to demean the Pope, so they chose to vandalize a Catholic Church and disrupt their mass.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-13-2005, 08:13 PM   #71
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 12:13 AM
Here's part of a story from Tuesday's Decatur Daily, which I think perhaps ties in to some of these posts more directly than the one pax posted. Unfortunately, it's a bit late for this now...the best topics always seem to come up during Shabbat or holidays when I can't be online .
Quote:
Wagner said she attended a Catholic church as a child and accused Catholics and all religions of worshipping idols. "Early in life I was involved in a Catholic Mass as kids," Wagner said. "It's the same thing, monotone prayer, no feeling for God. They're just jumping through hoops."

Although Turgeon and Wagner believe in Christ, they don't call themselves Christians. They say they practice spirituality, not religion.

"Adam kicked over the altar, and I was busy yelling about idol worship," Wagner said. "Adam believes God spoke to him, telling both of us to go call out the evils of the Catholic church. We are followers of Christ."

Turgeon and Wagner said they believe the End Times have begun because of widespread famine, epidemics and natural disasters like hurricanes and a tsunami that killed thousands. The couple spoke of their readings in the book of Revelation, saying changes in the moon, stars and an asteroid he believes is the woodworm, were all predicted.

Both Turgeon and Wagner believe Pope Benedict is the antichrist. They said Pope Benedict changed his pallium, a band worn over the pope's shoulders, and the color of his ring. "He changed the color to red," Turgeon said. "A symbol of the blood of the lamb. Every time he puts the ring on he's saying, 'I'm God.' " Turgeon said he discovered the difference in the pope's attire while browsing the Internet.

The Loughmans are both members of Flint Baptist Church but rarely attend, said the Rev. Billy Cagle, pastor. He said he could recall seeing them at church only two times in 1½ years, once for a directory photo and once for worship.

Cagle said he and Flint Baptist are not anti-Catholic and the couple did not get their beliefs there. He said the Loughmans appear "real impressionable."

Cagle called the Rev. Joe Culotta, pastor of Annunciation, on Monday to assure him of their concern. "We wanted to make sure he knows that they did not get (their attitudes) from us," Cagle said.

Culotta said Cagle's call touched him, and he appreciates the contact. Culotta said he does not harbor anger toward the four but is hurt. He said the most painful thing was the intentional breaking of the altar. "We had just celebrated the Eucharist on it. . . . We felt violated," he said. The grown men who witnessed the altar breaking shed tears over that, not out of fear, he said.

The pastor was impressed with how worshippers tried to reason peacefully with the intruders after they shouted and pushed over the altar. "I was really proud of them," he said.

The Catholic church does not worship idols but uses items as symbols of faith, said church leaders. They question how critics could judge what Catholics feel in their hearts when they use crosses or other symbols of Christianity in worship.
I agree with nb that all this underscores the importance of not exacerbating tensions by jumping to conclusions about people's motives. However, as Rev. Cagle's righteous act demonstrates, that responsibility is a two-way street. The reality is that mutual distrust, unease and hostility often underlie Catholic-evangelical relations, however PC things may appear on the surface.

I think this is particularly true in the Deep South. I can't speak for other regions, but growing up in rural Mississippi, I heard LOTS of what Sherry Darling is talking about, and I don't recall a single instance of it coming from anything other than an evangelical (usually Baptist) perspective. I never heard the phrase "whore of Babylon," but I did hear over and over that Catholics are idolaters, Catholics are heathens or pagans, Catholics believe in or practice "magic," and the Vatican is an evil, sinister institution devoted to power, "mammon" and idolatry. (I recognize that there are legitimate criticisms aplenty to be made of the Vatican, but I'm not talking sober, informed discourse here; I'm recalling a tone bordering on disgust that signaled loud and clear, especially to children, that anyone associated with that institution must be suspect also.)

As far as the other side goes--harder to say. Catholics were a minority, and a close-knit community who generally stuck to their own schools and kept a low profile. In my two years at a Catholic high school in the vicinity, I did hear a few ugly, reflexive associations of evangelicals with "rednecks," a sentiment which I suspect had broader currency. In general, though, the invective seemed several degrees cooler and a lot less pervasive.

Anyhow--point being, when such a climate exists, doing the right thing means going beyond holding the victim of the moment responsible for staying coolly dispassionate until all the facts are in. Judging from some of the editorials that appeared in this newspaper and others, I'd say verte's response was pretty common. Rev. Cagle's response demonstrated an admirable (and necessary) willingness to take responsibility by extending an unconditional gesture of support when it was most needed, yet from a "rational" perspective, least called for. That's good leadership, by any denominational name.
__________________
yolland is offline  
Old 10-14-2005, 02:19 AM   #72
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 12:13 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
do you think that a group defines itself in the most favorable terms possible?

do you think those favorable terms are always deserved?

do you think the media might portray a group in an unflattereing light that might be closer to reality than that which we tell ourselves, and especially others who are not members of our group?

do you think people sometimes feel a burden to have to "represent" their group and adhere to unrealistic standards?

do you think that we go to great lengths to distinguish ourselves from the negative stereotype that's part of the media narrative for whatever group?

do you think we might to that to such a degree that, to make a point, we become dishonest about both ourselves and our group?
These are great questions, really worth a thread of their own IMO.
__________________
yolland is offline  
Old 10-14-2005, 08:56 AM   #73
New Yorker
 
Sherry Darling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,857
Local Time: 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


Anyhow--point being, when such a climate exists, doing the right thing means going beyond holding the victim of the moment responsible for staying coolly dispassionate until all the facts are in.


Thank you, Yolland, for saying so elegantly what I was struggling to express. Much like the constant (and valid) calls for Muslims to denounce their own fringe, Catholics and Protestants alike are responsible for denouncing loudly and clearly the extremists in the pews next to us. Would I really accept, "Well, don't blame all of us" or "Oh, sure, jump to conclusions?" from my Muslim neighboor if the Metro ever blows up on the way into work? I don't think so. As REv. CAgel apparently understood, the Christ-like response is care for the victims.

Anyway, your post was beautiful, Yolland, and thanks for your validation of my observations regarding anti-Catholic theology.
__________________
Sherry Darling is offline  
Old 10-14-2005, 10:42 AM   #74
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:13 PM
I grew up in Alabama, and I also heard alot of bad things about the Catholic Church when I was growing up. I mostly heard that Catholics were idolators for supposedly worshipping Mary and statues. It's a little ironic that I grew up and converted to Catholicism!
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 10-14-2005, 10:49 AM   #75
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Here's part of a story from Tuesday's Decatur Daily, which I think perhaps ties in to some of these posts more directly than the one pax posted. Unfortunately, it's a bit late for this now...the best topics always seem to come up during Shabbat or holidays when I can't be online .

I agree with nb that all this underscores the importance of not exacerbating tensions by jumping to conclusions about people's motives. However, as Rev. Cagle's righteous act demonstrates, that responsibility is a two-way street. The reality is that mutual distrust, unease and hostility often underlie Catholic-evangelical relations, however PC things may appear on the surface.

I think this is particularly true in the Deep South. I can't speak for other regions, but growing up in rural Mississippi, I heard LOTS of what Sherry Darling is talking about, and I don't recall a single instance of it coming from anything other than an evangelical (usually Baptist) perspective. I never heard the phrase "whore of Babylon," but I did hear over and over that Catholics are idolaters, Catholics are heathens or pagans, Catholics believe in or practice "magic," and the Vatican is an evil, sinister institution devoted to power, "mammon" and idolatry. (I recognize that there are legitimate criticisms aplenty to be made of the Vatican, but I'm not talking sober, informed discourse here; I'm recalling a tone bordering on disgust that signaled loud and clear, especially to children, that anyone associated with that institution must be suspect also.)

As far as the other side goes--harder to say. Catholics were a minority, and a close-knit community who generally stuck to their own schools and kept a low profile. In my two years at a Catholic high school in the vicinity, I did hear a few ugly, reflexive associations of evangelicals with "rednecks," a sentiment which I suspect had broader currency. In general, though, the invective seemed several degrees cooler and a lot less pervasive.

Anyhow--point being, when such a climate exists, doing the right thing means going beyond holding the victim of the moment responsible for staying coolly dispassionate until all the facts are in. Judging from some of the editorials that appeared in this newspaper and others, I'd say verte's response was pretty common. Rev. Cagle's response demonstrated an admirable (and necessary) willingness to take responsibility by extending an unconditional gesture of support when it was most needed, yet from a "rational" perspective, least called for. That's good leadership, by any denominational name.
I appreciate the depth of analysis you've provided on this subject, yolland . Too often, FYM seems like a penny arcade, where subjects are simply propped up for easy firing. I hope we can get better framing of issues with our threads.
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com