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Old 10-11-2005, 04:40 PM   #16
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NBC, I understand your defensiveness, I honestly do. I am in a doctoral program which is often hostile to my faith and views Christianity as more a souce of conflict than peace (which is fair enough historically).
I hear the same things many of my conservative Christians hear in the smugness of some media pundints and the broad, broad brush we're painted with. I honestly get all of this.

But just once, it would be nice to hear you and some other conservative Christians acknowledge that this sort of thing is real and not so easily dismiessed as you might want. Mental health issues? On what in the world do you possibly base that? "This is idolotory"--that is classic, yes fundementalist doctrine that the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon. It's been a real, if not representative, strain of SOME Protestant churches pretty much since Luther. In college, I was told by more than one person at the BAptist Student Union that I was going to Hell since I had not answered an altar call. They were not extremeists, Doug. They were normal, marrying, job-holding, tax paying people.

I know you would never do anything like that and that most even fundementalists wouldn't. But it's out there, and it's real and has an infamous historical tradition. It'd just be nice to hear that acknowledged, is all I'm saying.

Verte, I'm so sorry.
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Oh, how nice, you have a defined subset of "Fundamentalist Christian". Too bad that the news outlet does not identify their religion.
You do have a knee-jerk response here don't you? Funny how you always like to accuse others of that.

These nutjobs sure aren't atheists/agnostics.

** edited to note SD's post expressed it better than mine. **
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:43 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Sherry Darling
But just once, it would be nice to hear you and some other conservative Christians acknowledge that this sort of thing is real and not so easily dismiessed as you might want. Mental health issues? On what in the world do you possibly base that?
Quote:
acted on a vision from God
Quote:
"I had a vision. Lisa and me were tearing a church apart,"
The news article did not discuss their religious beliefs and their beliefs as a foundation for their actions.
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:47 PM   #19
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I can't believe I shared all that and got a quoted one-liner in response. Ah well. Never mind.
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:50 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i understand your rush to defend fundamentalist christians. being a member of an oft-persecuted, scapegoated minority, i can relate and i feel that impulse.
Funny how when you question the application of a label, you are "rushing to defend" someone.

I don't personally feel attacked by this thread. Primarily because the labels used here are largely undefined and often miss the mark as to what I believe.
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:55 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Sherry Darling


I can't believe I shared all that and got a quoted one-liner in response. Ah well. Never mind.
Please. Is it possible that Turgeon has some mental instability? As far as I can tell, visions are not part of fundamentalist teachings.

Or is it simply easier to package it as a "fundamentalist" problem.

And where do you define "fundamentalist doctrine"?? Yes, there are some who see the Catholic Church as apostate, but does this sweep to all who are labeled "fundamentalist"? Is this Baptist teaching?
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:58 PM   #22
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Funny how when you question the application of a label, you are "rushing to defend" someone.

I don't personally feel attacked by this thread. Primarily because the labels used here are largely undefined and often miss the mark as to what I believe.


you know *exactly* what everyone is talking about. and your "i don't feel personally attacked" is precisely the kind of non-defense defense we're talking about.

Quote:
Oh, how nice, you have a defined subset of "Fundamentalist Christian". Too bad that the news outlet does not identify their religion.
Quote:
Must be the "fundamentalist" Christians... who else could it be
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Old 10-11-2005, 04:59 PM   #23
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Please. Is it possible that Turgeon has some mental instability? As far as I can tell, visions are not part of fundamentalist teachings.

Or is it simply easier to package it as a "fundamentalist" problem.

And where do you define "fundamentalist doctrine"?? Yes, there are some who see the Catholic Church as apostate, but does this sweep to all who are labeled "fundamentalist"? Is this Baptist teaching?


interesting how you are able to see this group in far more nuanced terms than the media.

i wonder ... are there other groups out there who are also every bit as nuanced and complex? or is it just this particular group?
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:04 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Irvine511
you know *exactly* what everyone is talking about. and your "i don't feel personally attacked" is precisely the kind of non-defense defense we're talking about.


You're right. I should just back out and let the usual outrage continue. Like all the other threads.
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:11 PM   #25
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Originally posted by nbcrusader




You're right. I should just back out and let the usual outrage continue. Like all the other threads.


or you could not answer the question, feign victim status (don't you just hate that culture of victimhood?) and prevent any sort of forward momentum.

i think a very relevant point is coming out here -- that we see ourselves in far more nuanced terms than the media sees us, which usuallly, through necessity, defines groups by the simplest of terms and the most convenient of definitions. and it is disconcerting, perhaps upsetting, to see oneself (mis)represented in the media.

many groups feel this way, many groups live with this every day of the week, every week in the year.

i think the lessons to learn from this are, 1) to work to see all groups as nuanced as our own, 2) to acknowledge that, yes, sometimes some stereotypes are true (or rooted in truth) but they can never be a totalizing narrative, and 3) fess up to the group's negative actions.

are some gay men promiscuous? yes.
are some Christian fundamentalists intolerant? yes.
are some african-americans criminals? yes.
are some white men born to privilege they don't deserve? yes.
should some lawyers be chained together at the bottom of the ocean? well ... you could answer that better than i.

but so what?
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:15 PM   #26
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Perhaps you should step back and look at the universe of FYM. I would find it hard to believe you could claim being a member of an oft-persecuted, scapegoated minority here.

And as the author of the misused "theocracy watch" threads, you seem more than willing to deal it out.
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Please. Is it possible that Turgeon has some mental instability? As far as I can tell, visions are not part of fundamentalist teachings.

Or is it simply easier to package it as a "fundamentalist" problem.

And where do you define "fundamentalist doctrine"?? Yes, there are some who see the Catholic Church as apostate, but does this sweep to all who are labeled "fundamentalist"? Is this Baptist teaching?
Of course it's possible that the guy has issues. It's likely that he does. I don't think it's a "fundamentalist" problem per se. I think it's a "nut" problem. I cannot imagine my Seventh-Day Adventist cousins doing such a thing. No, never.
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:21 PM   #28
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Originally posted by verte76
I don't think it's a "fundamentalist" problem per se. I think it's a "nut" problem.

And that is all I've been getting at. Thank you for the clarification.
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:23 PM   #29
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Perhaps you should step back and look at the universe of FYM. I would find it hard to believe you could claim being a member of an oft-persecuted, scapegoated minority here.

And as the author of the misused "theocracy watch" threads, you seem more than willing to deal it out.


but we're talking about an article -- not about some poster's characterization of a group. and it would be nice if FYM were the real world, but it isn't, and the real world affects how we interact here on FYM.

i'll even avoid the "theocracy watch" thread comments, since it doesn't seem as if you are capable of understanding the threat that the current religiosity of the administration and increasingly all branches of government -- since when does being a born-again christian count as a SCOTUS qualification!?!?!

or are you? i'd like to think you are.

but nice work: you've avoided answering the question or offering any insights yet again!

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Old 10-11-2005, 05:24 PM   #30
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Doug, whether you want to admit it or not, anti-Catholic sentiments are an historical, institutionalized fact of soem of the more extreme, fudementalist Protestant sects. Now, does that mean all Protestants are anti-Catholic? Of course not, just as not all Catholics are anti-Semites who believe the Jews killed Jesus, despite the RCC's historical, insitutionalized anti-semitism (saucy 'ho that she is )

From Wiki

Protestant Reformation

Some pre-Reformation writers and most of the Reformers themselves, from Martin Luther (who wrote On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin, and John Knox (who wrote The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women) identify the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon. This opinion influenced several generations in England and Scotland when it was put into the 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible. As a tradition, it continues through Scofield Reference Bible (whose 1917 edition identified "ecclesiastical Babylon" with "apostate Christendom headed by the Papacy") and pro-Reformation writings such as those of I.M. Haldeman, and it is kept alive by contemporary figures such as Ian Paisley and Jack Chick. The "drunkenness with the blood of saints and martyrs", by this interpretation, refers to the veneration of saints and relics, which is viewed by the Reformers as idolatry and apostasy. Those who accept this tradition use the phrase "Whore of Babylon" to refer to the Roman Catholic Church.

The Protestant reformers were not the first people to call the Roman Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon. There was a fairly long tradition of this kind of name-calling by opponents of the Papacy. Frederick Barbarossa published missives that called the Papacy the Whore of Babylon, and the Pope the Antichrist, during the course of his protracted quarrel with Pope Alexander III. Dante equated the corruption and simony in the office of the Papacy with the Whore of Babylon in Canto 19 of his Inferno. When the Florentine tyrant Girolamo Savonarola also called the Papacy the Whore of Babylon, he meant something closer to the Reformers' usage. These claims, however, were based chiefly on social and political disagreements with Roman Catholic policy, or at their strongest accuse the Papacy of moral corruption. The Protestant reformers, by contrast, seriously considered the Papacy to be at least potentially the apocalyptic figure mentioned in Bible prophecy, and included the claim in Bible commentaries as well as polemics. They meant something more than to accuse the Roman Catholic Church of political or moral corruption; they claimed that as a church it taught a Satanic counterfeit plan of salvation, one that would lead its faithful to Hell rather than to Heaven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon



We can engage in an interesting and useful discussion of extremeism, media and identity (I really appreciate your post Irvine!) or we can defend "our team". Up to you.
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