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Old 02-05-2003, 04:23 PM   #106
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universal owns interscope?
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Old 02-05-2003, 04:49 PM   #107
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So Sting2, do you deny that the US overtrew democracies or aided in their overthrow? Do you deny that the US has proped up over a dozen dictators who murdered their people? Do you seriously think much of the world hates the US and considers it an imperialist nation out of envy and self-delusion?
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Old 02-05-2003, 05:13 PM   #108
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There's also something I don't think has been mentioned: as far as I know US have the strongest army in the world, right? Enough conventional weapons to defeat anyone, right?

France comes in second as far as defense spending goes, and we spend ten times what they do.
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Old 02-05-2003, 05:16 PM   #109
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Originally posted by Blacksword
So Sting2, do you deny that the US overtrew democracies or aided in their overthrow? Do you deny that the US has proped up over a dozen dictators who murdered their people?
Apparently. America is the teflon nation, nothing sticks to us, and if it does leave a stain, we can wipe it off with some flags.
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Old 02-05-2003, 05:19 PM   #110
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Originally posted by STING2
I'm certainly not ignorant of history and its rather presumtive and an unnecessary for you to make such a comment. The USA did rebuild both Japan and Germany and despite the fact that Iraq is a third world country, it does not make the comparison invalid, especially considering the condition that both Germany and Japan were in at the end of the war.
Germany and Japan both had active middle classes or the remnants of active middle classes. Both of those nations were functional and developed, hardly third world.
The point is, Germany and Japan were not in the same situation as Iraq is now. When will you see that?

EDIT
Also, Japan and Germany were ACTIVELY engaging in imperial aggression on a multi-continental scale. Saddam won't even THINK of doing that, ever since he failed with Kuwait. Your comparison is fallacy-ridden and absurd!
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Old 02-05-2003, 05:27 PM   #111
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Exactly.
Thanks.
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Old 02-05-2003, 06:08 PM   #112
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Unfortunately, many of the poorest decisions were made in response to the Cold War. Decisions were made, rotten governements were proppoed up, and the common man was trampled. This happened on both sides of the Iron Curtain.

I am confused now though, dealing with this situation. Are you saying the United Nations should do something to remove him or not?

Just because we have supported dictators in the past we should support him now? Some of these arguments, have lost me.

Peace
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Old 02-05-2003, 06:27 PM   #113
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Blacksword,

The USA engaged in a policy of containment and occasionally rollback of Soviet supported states for the sake of long term global security. I'm not going to justify every single tatical situation, but certainly the strategic goal was justified and saved much of the world from Global domination by the Soviets and or World War III.

The USA has certainly helped several dictators in the past that killed many of their own people, but there were more important priorities that demanded this course of action. Your not going tell me that the USA should not have sent Billions of tons of supplies to Stalins Soviet Union are you?


"Do you seriously think much of the world hates the US and considers it an imperialist nation out of envy and self-delusion?"

Yes I do. Much of this world you speak of live in countries that are dictatorships or in poverty without access to education. Certainly many in democratic countries may have this view, but from what I have studied and learned over the years, I strongly dispute such claims.
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Old 02-05-2003, 06:36 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
"Do you seriously think much of the world hates the US and considers it an imperialist nation out of envy and self-delusion?"

Yes I do. Much of this world you speak of live in countries that are dictatorships or in poverty without access to education. Certainly many in democratic countries may have this view, but from what I have studied and learned over the years, I strongly dispute such claims.
STING, not everybody dreams of living in a 5 bedroom house and owning a Lexus. Stunning, yet true. This talk of envy always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Old 02-05-2003, 07:00 PM   #115
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Minifly,

"Germany and Japan both had active middle classes or the remnants of active middle classes. Both of those nations were functional and developed, hardly third world.
The point is, Germany and Japan were not in the same situation as Iraq is now. When will you see that?"

I'm well aware of Germany's and Japans history prior to World War II. I'm not disputing the differences between Iraq's situation as a third world country that has yet to undergo certain types of political and economic development and the position Germany and Japan were in before the War started. I'm well aware of those facts. What is also a fact is the level of destruction and human loss of life in both Germany and Japan is far greater than anything Iraq is about to suffer, to the nature of modern warfare today. This is another difference that bodes well in Iraq's favor. In addition, Iraq with the exception of Saudi Arabia, has the world largest oil reserves on the planet. This level of natural resource wealth is not something Germany or Japan had to draw on themselves. Ever "economic potential" study that has been done on Iraq since the 1970s has found that Iraq should be the wealthiest country in the region do to its natural resources which include the energy that can be derived from its rivers as well as its oil.

Another factor though is the obvious effort that the USA can put into nation building that midigate the problems that Iraq faces in being a third world country. Iraq is unique, and there is not any example to point to that would be exactly the same as Iraq, but there are many countries that are part of the first world today, that used to be Third World countries back in the 1950s like South Korea and Tawain. Economic development and politcal development of Iraq will happen as long as the necessary resources are invested to achieve those goals. The difficulties of building a new Iraq are not as bad as the difficulties and possibilities of a Saddam controlled Iraq armed in the future with nuclear weapons.

"Also, Japan and Germany were ACTIVELY engaging in imperial aggression on a multi-continental scale. Saddam won't even THINK of doing that, ever since he failed with Kuwait. Your comparison is fallacy-ridden and absurd!"

Listen, I was talking about rebuilding Iraq after a potential war and the comparisons with Germany and Japan. I don't know where your pulling this up from. There are a lot of things Saddam is planning to do in the future, and he already has weapons that Germany and Japan never had. He is also in close proximity to most of the worlds energy supplies and does not need multi-continental aggression capability to threaten the world.

Here at Free Your Mind, we try to remain objective and respectful of other peoples points of view. Characterizing me or my arguements as fallacy-ridden or absurd does not make it so and does nothing to prove or advance your own view points. Just like making and unbased claim that I am "ignorant of history", it is unnecessary in not in the spirit of this forum.
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Old 02-05-2003, 07:05 PM   #116
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Flag Pole Pear,

universal owns interscope? It sure does.
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Old 02-05-2003, 07:46 PM   #117
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Originally posted by STING2


Honestly, you could say that the only reason anyone every does something nice for another person is because it benefits him/herself in some way.

I have family members in that top 1% or the "elite" and I'm sorry, but their not robbing me or anyone else!

If worried about the rich or the Elite, why don't you start with Bono who is currently worth 162 million dollars! He is apart of the largest record company on the planet, Universal.

First paragraph:

Good principle. You´re definitely following The Sermon on the Mount there, honestly. Not only Jesus benefitted himself, also MLK, Gandhi and Mother Teresa did. All the teachers and doctors and social workers and priests in this world do their job to benefit themselves (not for the students or ill or cracks or believers, noooo - they have their own deficit in their soul, man - they need to feel they´re doing something good for society, those psychos! After all they aren´t in Forbes for that).

To me you sound like an inexperienced colony official, who hasn´t learned how to deal with power yet

Second paragraph:

Fine by me. I didn´t say you or your family members robbed anyone. The ones that I define as financial elite, do, though. Sure, most are protected by law. Hmm, sometimes not - sometimes the methods to circulate stocks, puts, options are a little - shady? Sometimes robbing´s not dependent on one person, but on the decisions by supervisory board? You could ask the question: is Phil Knight responsible for the sweatshops of Nike? Are the Oppenheimers responsible for shameful labour practices in diamond mines? Lets take a look at their website!

"On 29 May 2001, De Beers and DB Investments (DBI) announced that all the preconditions required for the scheme of arrangement to implement DBI's offer for De Beers have been fulfilled.
The DB Investments consortium comprises: the Oppenheimer family interests via a subsidiary of Central Holdings Limited (45%), Anglo American plc (45%) and Debswana, a company jointly owned by the Government of the Republic of Botswana and De Beers (10%)."

Oh, you´re right, STING2. I don´t see any robbery there. www.macha.f9.co.uk must be some left wing propaganda.

But this won´t bother us, will it. As long as its legal. After all, laws are part of the free market. Supply and... demand.

Having made billions from free-flowing international capital, Soros has nevertheless become one of global capitalism's most perceptive critics. Since capital can easily escape countries with high taxes or strong regulations, a state's ability to take care of its citizens can, he says, be severely handicapped by globalization. "The development of a global society has lagged behind the growth of a global economy," he says. "Unless the gap is closed, the global capitalist system will not survive."

Third paragraph:

I´m not worried about Bono. Let him be worth 162 mil. The 15 bil he tries to beg out of your criminal president, make him worth it. He´s one of the few who shares. His art, his voice, his beliefs. Who gives by taking. And, to say the truth, 162 mil is much, but not that much, is it.
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Old 02-05-2003, 07:50 PM   #118
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universal owns interscope?
Yes, the Universal Music Group owns Interscope, A&M, Geffen, Island/Def Jam, MCA, Motown and a few other important labels.
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Old 02-05-2003, 08:25 PM   #119
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Originally posted by STING2
Yes I do. Much of this world you speak of live in countries that are dictatorships or in poverty without access to education. Certainly many in democratic countries may have this view, but from what I have studied and learned over the years, I strongly dispute such claims.
There we go. So you say people who live under dictatorships or in poor countries are stupid?

People living in democratic countries are not that stupid, but from what you have studied and learned, you strongly dispute they are as intelligent as you. Or, if they are, they just envy you.

Right?
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Old 02-05-2003, 08:26 PM   #120
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HIPHOP,

"To me you sound like an inexperienced colony official, who hasn´t learned how to deal with power yet"

"criminal president"

Come on now, your a lot smarter, respectful, and objective than these statements suggest.
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