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Old 02-04-2003, 11:09 PM   #76
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Originally posted by gabrielvox


Iran sent their own old people and children into battle. Saddam did not deliberately target them. The blame for alot of the Iranian deaths in the Iran-Iraq war lies, lo and behold, not only on IRAN, but ALSO THE USA!
Gabrielvox,

Can we at least point the finger at the European powers as well?
Let's not just blame the good ole' USA.

Peace
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:11 PM   #77
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Scarletwine,

I realize you study politics, but I have known about US Nuclear policy since I first started to look into it in the early 80s. US field Artillery pieces, a 155mm howitzer was converted to fire a 1 Kiliton nuclear shell in 1953. I have the picture of the first test of this. I can assure, the policy of the Bush Administration is simply a restatement of old policies. We have had small nuclear weapons for decades. So have the Russians.

I agree about what you said with my comment with Anitrium and avoid saying something like that again. But, did you look at what prompted that comment? Anitrium comment was not very respectful either.

Anitrium,

I never said you lived in Europe. My comment was not a personal one. But it was inflammatory and unnecessary and I'm sorry for that.
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:15 PM   #78
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Gabrielvox,

Can we at least point the finger at the European powers as well?
Let's not just blame the good ole' USA.

Peace
Point taken, although Im not aware just how much of a role any European nations played in the Iran-Iraq war..

But I don't know everything...
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:20 PM   #79
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


If I hear ONE more comment about how we should turn the whole Middle East into a "sea of glass," I will throw myself out a window.


I really hope you do not think that is what I said! [/B][/QUOTE]



Nothing to do with anything you've said at all. Or anyone here, for that matter.
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:25 PM   #80
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Originally posted by gabrielvox


Point taken, although Im not aware just how much of a role any European nations played in the Iran-Iraq war..

But I don't know everything...
Iraq was being supported by FRANCE, GERMANY, and The USA.

Under Reagan:

CIA Shared Intelligence with Iraq on Iranian troop movements.
Removed Iraq from Terrorist Supporting States List.
High tech export licenses issued to Iraq that allow access to equiptment that would be used for biological and chemical weapons development.

US provides Iraq with Agricultural AID.
1983 400 Million
1984 513 Million
1987 652 Million


France:
Supplied 40% of Iraqi Military Exports (1982)
Helped to Build Nuclear Reactor, capable of making weapons grade materials.

Germany:
Helped build the plants that were used to make chemical weapons.



In return, Iraq fought Iran, a country that wanted to spread it's revolution throughout the Middle East. Reagan also hoped to stop Saddam from sliding towards the USSR.

Saddam also voiced his support for Reagan's peace plan for Israel and Palestine.


Peace
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:27 PM   #81
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Gabrielvox,

The Soviet Union supplied over 80% of Iraq's military combat equipment. The rest was supplied by the Chinese and the French. In addition, the Soviet Union kept 2,000 Soviet troops to train and advise the Iraqi military up until a few months before the 1991 Gulf War.
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:27 PM   #82
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Originally posted by meegannie


Nothing to do with anything you've said at all. Or anyone here, for that matter.


Thanks goodness!
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:31 PM   #83
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Originally posted by gabrielvox


See, this is the kind of unfactual information we do not need. If you recap how you arrived at this number it becomes plain that you blame deaths on Saddam that he had nothing to do with.

Iran sent their own old people and children into battle. Saddam did not deliberately target them. The blame for alot of the Iranian deaths in the Iran-Iraq war lies, lo and behold, not only on IRAN, but ALSO THE USA!
Ummmmmmm....one minor detail..............

Iraq invaded Iran.
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Old 02-05-2003, 12:32 AM   #84
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So we supported an Iraqi invasion of Iran, but denounced and militarily pushed back one on Kuwait? Hmm....
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Old 02-05-2003, 12:47 AM   #85
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The USA provided some support to Iraq mainly in the form of intelligence the movements of Iranian units. This was done because the USA, Soviet Union, and the rest of the Persian Gulf Region did not want to deal with the catastrophic situation that would result from an Iranian take over of Iraq.
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Old 02-05-2003, 12:57 AM   #86
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AS I recall....the United States had two main supporters in the Middle East up until 1979. Iran and Saudi Arabia. The United States counted on these two countries for stability in the region.

Then the Iranian Revolution occured in 1979. 55 Americans were taken hostage for 444 days.

In 1980, Saddam, fearing a similar revolution in his country(Iraq's population is over 50% Shi'ite Muslim, the same sect that started the revolution in IRAN)invaded Iran.

This was supported by many nations, because IRAN vowed to spread its revolution throughout the middle east. Many of the powers in Europe, the Middle East, and in Europe supported Iraq for this reason.

This is also what contributed to the decision to leave Saddam in power, to use Iraq as a buffer between Iran and the rest of the Persian Gulf after the Gulf War.

As to our removal of Saddam from Kuwait. Saddam attacked Kuwaitt because of the massive debt, and because of the poor condition of his country after the Iran/Iraq war. There was massive inflation on top of massive debt. The price of oil was plummeting and he was facing pressure from within to do something. He hoped by the invasion of Kuwait to help increase the price of oil, steal gold from the reserves in Kuwait, and by doing this, fix his dire economic problems.

Peace
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Old 02-05-2003, 01:51 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Saddam has caused the death of 1.7 million people over the past 20 years.
AIDS killed about 3 million people last year alone.

Not that I'm trying to start an argument, just adding a bit of perspective.
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Old 02-05-2003, 02:00 AM   #88
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AIDS killed about 3 million people last year alone.

Not that I'm trying to start an argument, just adding a bit of perspective.
are we trying to find a cure?
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Old 02-05-2003, 02:44 AM   #89
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From what I understand, Iraq has/or not (not proven yet) biological and chemical weapons. They don't have nuclear weapons. But, yes, if they do and if Saddam feels pressed against the wall with no option, he might use whatever he has.
Nuclear weapons are expensive to maintain, develop and deploy. Unless Iraq is using all of it's resources on how ever many nukes they may or may not have, I'm willing to bet they do not have the money to contain one.
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Old 02-05-2003, 03:06 AM   #90
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Okay, my main problem with this whole "Invade Iraq, kill evil Saddam and liberate the people (oil)" war is, once Saddam is gone, who is going to fill that gap? Undoubtedly, the power vaccum will be enourmous. This, in my mind could go one of two ways.
One: America installs another puppet and the same thing happens again like with Noriega and Saddam and various other South American dictators ala Chomsky.

Two: America allows the Iraqi people to decide on their own leadership. It could take gernations upon generations to get a good government in position, or it could take a matter of a few years. Either way, this must be the solution. In order to break this cycle America (and other Western nations) have/had going with thrid world nations is to just stop. Stop introducing new rulers, stop declaring war when things get out of hand, just cut it out. Instead, foster productive policies on the part of the new government in hopes of a New Deal (or similar) style of leadership.

Trade is a big part of this equation. America must begin fair and equal trade with third world countries as opposed to dominating the trade to achieve unfair prices. How much do your bananas cost? and how much of that money do you think goes to the workers who picked them? Trade that is fair and equal is a huge part of pulling "undeveloped" countries out from under western domination.
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