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Old 02-06-2003, 01:53 PM   #166
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Right...Europeans are greedy, and envious of US. Interesting talk coming from Americans.

People say "oil will help Iraqi people". Well, I just wonder how much influence on what happens with oil they will really have - come to think of it, I seriously wonder how much oil they will be given.

And this whole thing had better not be a "he tried to kill my Daddy" thing.
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Old 02-06-2003, 03:49 PM   #167
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Klaus,

If you want to know where nearly all the weapons for Iraq's military came from its called the THE SOVIET UNION. Iraq had been the Soviet Unions client state for years. This idea that the USA turned to Iraq to oppose Soviet Communism holds no water what so ever. Did you know that the Soviet Union had 2,000 military troops stationed in Iraq during the 1980s and up to 6 months before the Gulf War in 1991. Over 80% of Iraq's military equipment was from the Soviet Union. Not a single piece of USA military combat equipment was ever sold to Iraq.

Iraq's Nuclear, Chemical and Biological programs started in the early 1970s. The USA did not supply Chemical weapons to Iraq. It did allow Biological cultures to go to Iraq that Iraq later refined into weapons grade material for mililtary use rather than medical use. Certainly a mistake, but why don't people talk about the dozen or so other countries that benefited from lax restrictions on the trade of "duel use" technology. By the way, Iraq never used biological weapons against Iran. In addition, they were dozens of other countries including the Soviet Union that supplied or could of supplied similar material in the off chance that the USA had canceled the order.

The USA's financial assistance to Iraq amounted to a tiny fraction of the 140 Billion dollars sent to Iraq by other Gulf States during the Iran/Iraq war. Iraq's victory/stalemate in the war benefited the entire Persian Gulf region and ironically both USA and Soviet interest. The Soviets client state survived, and the oil reserves vital to the USA, Europe, and other industrialized nations was prevented from being potentially overrun by Iranian military forces.

Considering the legitamite interest that the USA had in seeing Iraq survive the war intact, its surprising that the USA's contributions to that effort were so tiny. But the Soviet Union did the lions share of the work, supplying and replacing all equipment the Iraqi military needed throughout the war in addition to the extensive training they recieved in Soviet military tactics and organization fromt he 2,000 Soviet military personal stationed in Iraq through out the war.
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Old 02-06-2003, 04:15 PM   #168
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HIPHOP,

"How many professors from other countries did you listen to?"

Several, and none of them accused the USA of being and Evil Empire either!

"Dont bring up the security argument. Saddam wont start a nuclear war against the U.S. - no one has the guts or the will to do so)."

Thats not so at all. Saddam has been undetered in the past regardless of USA strengths and will become even more dangerous once he possess a nuclear weapon.

I've studied military and international security for a long time. It would be a mistake for the USA and the world community to return to the years before World War II when wishful thinking and appeasement were thought to be effective foreign policy. Security and military spending is important and its about time other countries contributed more to that.

By the way, the USA is currently at #6 in terms of standard of living around the world according to the United Nations! The American people are doing very well and the only European countries that are ahead of the USA in terms of standard of living are Belguim, Sweden and Norway. There are all kinds of ways Americans can pay for University. Most Americans can get financial aid and there are many scholarships and other ways of support. Today, 60% of Americans go to University and 28% graduate with a 4 year degree. The USA has more Universities and Colleges per capita than any other country on the planet. More foreign students come to studied in the United States than any other country in the world.

Security is a very important issue and USA's large defense spending has not impoverished it but protected it and allowed it to grow. I do believe in balance though, but since 1945, the USA has gotten that balance right more often than not. This defense spending has also benefited the rest of the world in terms of deterence and preventing war in Europe and helping to bring war when it happens to a quick and just resolution. Clearly, European and Asian defense spending would be higher without a US presence in those regions. It should be higher anyway, and its easy to see that they benefit from Uncle Sam being around in that money is invested in other area's.

USA engagement of the world since 1945 has made the world a safer place. US isolationism contributed to two World Wars, and were not going to repeat that terrible cycle. The cost were to great the last time. But some people unfortunately tend to forget.
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Old 02-06-2003, 04:30 PM   #169
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STING2:
Afik Saddam swiched to russian technology in 1995 before that he was "our bastard"

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Old 02-06-2003, 04:58 PM   #170
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Klaus,

That is 100% wrong. The T-72 is not an American tank, it is a Soviet made tank. So is the T-55, and T-62. I have a large weapons table that completely describes all of Iraq's weapon systems as of June 1st 1989. Just ask any of the 500,000 American soldiers in the Gulf that fought the Iraqi forces.

If you like, I can put the weapons table up to show you the facts. There are also numberous other sources that you can look up which will show that this is a fact as well.

Honestly Klaus, I think you must of mistyped something.
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Old 02-06-2003, 05:27 PM   #171
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Sting: sorry, you're right - i messed up the year - off course the change from western to eastern technology was before the first iraq war - i'll have to find out the date if that's important. (hell i'm really bad in remembering names and numbers
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Old 02-06-2003, 07:37 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
HIPHOP,

"How many professors from other countries did you listen to?"

Several, and none of them accused the USA of being and Evil Empire either!

There are all kinds of ways Americans can pay for University. Most Americans can get financial aid and there are many scholarships and other ways of support. Today, 60% of Americans go to University and 28% graduate with a 4 year degree. The USA has more Universities and Colleges per capita than any other country on the planet. More foreign students come to studied in the United States than any other country in the world.

Clearly, European and Asian defense spending would be higher without a US presence in those regions.
1) Fine to see! Would you say, in your opinion, that Im biased?

2) I agree to that, American colleges offer great education, just like European Universities. But I think American colleges are very expensive anyway. Many Americans have to take student loans to finance their studies. I am sure they (and me, even if I dont have the right bc Im European) would prefer to study for free. And the American state could afford that, or do you disagree?

3) Good point. But dont forget, the NATO costs a lot, too.
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Old 02-06-2003, 09:05 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl
Right...Europeans are greedy, and envious of US. Interesting talk coming from Americans.

People say "oil will help Iraqi people". Well, I just wonder how much influence on what happens with oil they will really have - come to think of it, I seriously wonder how much oil they will be given.

And this whole thing had better not be a "he tried to kill my Daddy" thing.
Yeah...

MiniFly, you're welcome (I like your sig, by the way).

Angela
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Old 02-06-2003, 09:14 PM   #174
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Klaus,

Thats fine, I was really puzzled by your remark. I just thought to myself you must of made a typing mistake.
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Old 02-06-2003, 09:30 PM   #175
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http://www.theonion.com/onion3904/north_dakota.html



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Old 02-06-2003, 10:30 PM   #176
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I gotta love when people say that the u.s. should just mind their own buisness.

when we go to somalia, people say "stay out".

when we don't go to bosnia, they say "where the hell are you?"
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Old 02-07-2003, 03:41 AM   #177
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Old 02-07-2003, 10:21 AM   #178
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OK I have a question with the supporters of this attack: you say Iraq has WMD and violates UN resolutions. That may be the case, but there are also other regimes who do both, and certainly many other who are cruel and oppresive to their own people.

Would you take on war with all of them?
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Old 02-07-2003, 11:33 AM   #179
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Originally posted by U2girl
OK I have a question with the supporters of this attack: you say Iraq has WMD and violates UN resolutions. That may be the case, but there are also other regimes who do both, and certainly many other who are cruel and oppresive to their own people.

Would you take on war with all of them?
that is an immature question. one crisis at a time please. this is not about the u.s. verses the world.
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Old 02-07-2003, 11:45 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl
OK I have a question with the supporters of this attack: you say Iraq has WMD and violates UN resolutions. That may be the case, but there are also other regimes who do both, and certainly many other who are cruel and oppresive to their own people.

Would you take on war with all of them?
U2girl,

I understand where you are going with this question. I will ask you some questions back. How many of these other nations have used them in the past 30 years? How many of them have attacked or invaded three other countries in the past 30 years? How many of them have signed Cease Fire treaties, and violated them?

Peace
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