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Old 02-06-2003, 07:45 AM   #151
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And if the U.S. stays within its own borders, it is considered "isolationist" and is "ignoring its responsibilities to the world."

And, then, the U.S. is bad.



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Old 02-06-2003, 08:19 AM   #152
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Not so Melon, it would appear that the US is just bad at choosing their battles.

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Old 02-06-2003, 08:30 AM   #153
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Hiphop, MiniFly, anitram, Scarletwine, U2girl-you guys are making excellent points.

Well said, all of you.

Angela
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Old 02-06-2003, 08:49 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by JOFO


fuckin' A...

I might be wrong, but I heard iraq invaded kuwait in 1990.
And so what? Was Kuwait the 52nd member state of the United States of America?

Now, we can discuss if the intervention was right or wrong, and I may agree with you. But it wasnīt U.S. territory. Get my point?

The only attack on U.S. territory since WWII happened on Sept. 11th. And it was a terror attack, not an attack by a state, as far as I know.

So the question why U.S. military likes to "travel all around the world" is viable.

What if other nations were as powerful as America and tried to secure their interests worldwide, or to bring "their own version of democracy" (to be nice at this point), to all those poor countries?

Mind your own business. It would make the world a better place, in most of the cases.
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Old 02-06-2003, 08:57 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Courses I took at my University on US foreign Policy were objective and unbiased and there certainly were no courses that were so presumtive as to call America an Empire.
Courses I took at my University about international relations were objective as well, I might say.

How many professors from other countries did you listen to? Anyone from Chile, or Latin America, or Africa?
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Old 02-06-2003, 09:06 AM   #156
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Well my course is actually fairly balanced it is America as Empire? Though the prof clearly has her opinion the overall conclusion is left open. Also there is plenty of range within the terms Imperialist. There's everything fropm the beneveolent to manipulative to blood thirsty monsters. Besides the facts I quote I dug up on my own ofr an OAC history project. The history anound the overtrhow of the Guatemalan government in '54 and the degree of US involvement in Pinochet's rise suprised the heck out of me. Even in my suspicion of the US I had never dreamed it was so blantant. I can't see how the Guatemala incident coulld be seen as anything other than imperialist, though the Chilean example has more room for interpretation. However in that case the couple recently released CIA documents from the period I had the chance to read, show a rather bad face of Nixon's forign policy.
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Old 02-06-2003, 09:12 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
HIPHOP,

"You know, STING2, this thread was about the nuclear options, but there are a row of other topics too, like "the average American consumer". You asked me to explain how you were betrayed. I therefore must have implied you were an average American consumer - which you are, maybe. Most average American consumers donīt have a family members who are part of 1% (to me, it seems the financial "elite" is more in the direction of 0,001%, but thats another story, and we donīt really need to discuss about that)."

Sorry to inform but its not unlikely for the average person to have an Uncle, Aunt, Grandparent, Cousin, that is in the top 1% in the USA. Certainly many people don't, but there are many that do. Just because one or two members of a large family are very rich, does not make the rest of the family necessarily very rich. But why are bringing this up? Why is this relevant?

I can disagree with your view points or opinions but still respect them.
In fact, its not relevant. Thats what I meant when I said we donīt really need to discuss about that. I wanted to bring the topic of the average American consumer back, though. Because my personal opinion is that the social system (including medical care), public transport, and education system (including colleges)in the U.S. could be free for everyone if the wealth was distributed more equally.

And we neither need to discuss about the distibution of wealth... because you may think thats socialism knocking, whereas I say, those are principles that were laid down in the Bible. It would be enough - for a start - to readjust the high defense spending. I donīt know what the presence of American military in the gulf region costs per day (maybe you can provide data), but I am sure it would equal out free college for so-and-so many hundreds of American citizens.

Some people on this message board, for example, have to repay high student loans. Why that? The U.S.A. would be rich enough to offer free access to colleges.

Thats my point, you know. All Americans would profit. Not just a small minority, like at the upcoming war - arms ond oil industry, in my opinion. (Donīt bring up the security argument. Saddam wonīt start a nuclear war against the U.S. - no one has the guts or the will to do so).
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Old 02-06-2003, 09:14 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
Not so Melon, it would appear that the US is just bad at choosing their battles.

Ant.
Perhaps...

I just woke up and decided to be argumentative today that's all.



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Old 02-06-2003, 09:15 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
HIPHOP,

"If the U.S. stays on its own territory, the U.S. is good."

And when the USA does not stay on its own territory you think it is .....?
I think it is claiming a right that no other state in the world regularly has, and it can afford that because of its power.
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Old 02-06-2003, 09:20 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
And if the U.S. stays within its own borders, it is considered "isolationist" and is "ignoring its responsibilities to the world."
By who? I never heard that argument except from within the U.S.

The U.S. maybe ignoring its responsibilities, though, if it doesnīt pay its part for the U.N. when its due.
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Old 02-06-2003, 10:07 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
And if the U.S. stays within its own borders, it is considered "isolationist" and is "ignoring its responsibilities to the world."

And, then, the U.S. is bad.



Melon
Well Melon,
it the US would use its power to strengthen international organisations and would send their troops just in UN missions to foreign countries, if they would care about international laws, if they wouldn't build a shield against atomic weapons and tell us in the same year what their new policy of using a-bombs is..
..well maybe then more people outside the USA would love their international engagement.

Lots of power means lots of responsibility.

It would be helpful to listen to the concerns of your friends and not talk just to new alies who say "yes" to everything you say because they get new weapon technology from you (well hussein said yes to everything too to get weapons from you, didn't he?)

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Old 02-06-2003, 10:23 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


Lots of power means lots of responsibility.

Excellent Uncle Ben Quote!!!!!!

Spiderman Rocks
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Old 02-06-2003, 10:41 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


(well hussein said yes to everything too to get weapons from you, didn't he?)

Klaus
A more accurate statement would be........

We provided him with AID in the area of Argriculture. This in turn allowed him the money to spend on weapons from France and Biotechnology from Germany.

In turn.....he did a 180 on his position on MANY things....

Israel.


PEace
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Old 02-06-2003, 11:15 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


A more accurate statement would be........

We provided him with AID in the area of Argriculture. This in turn allowed him the money to spend on weapons from France and Biotechnology from Germany.

In turn.....he did a 180 on his position on MANY things....

Israel.


PEace
To recall the immortal words of another president "It was clear he was a bastard, but he was 'our' bastard"

The US supported the Shah and Saudi Arabia (two "kingdoms" or dictators as you like it) and after the overthrow of the Shah they needed new allies in Arabia because they were afraid of the "evil communist".
And with the fear about Communism you can get everything from US politics - even Chemical Weapons for Saddam.
To complicate the sheer nuttiness of what passes for American foreign policy, the Reagan administration was at the same time selling arms to Iran and using the profits to support death squads in Central America. But that's a completely different story i guess..
..back to Saddam:
USA used their international influense to soften national and international embargos after that USand their friends (France/Germany/Great Britain) sold equipment to Iraq.
For example: US the knowhow for Chemical Weapons (ok, so called duel use technology), France mainly conventional weapons and Germany helped to build the Factories for the Chemical Weapons (sorry, for duel useable Chemical Factories).
That's one of our sources why we know that he has this technology - because we sold it.
So.. Saddam is still a bastard but no longer "ours"!

Klaus

p.s. i wasn't aware that this was a Spiderman quote - seems like Yoda wasn't the only movie character with a little wisdom ;-)
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Old 02-06-2003, 12:55 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Hiphop, MiniFly, anitram, Scarletwine, U2girl-you guys are making excellent points.

Well said, all of you.

Angela
Thank you!
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