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Old 02-05-2003, 10:02 PM   #136
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Canada...they are not supporting us? Interesting.

Western Europe? All of Western Europe? Or France and Germany?

Nah...no dictatorship there....Just a lot of greed. But that couldn't cloud their judgement now could it?

Food for oil benefits...hmmmmmmm
You must have misread my post. I didn't say Canada, I said "all those", meaning a substantial proportion of Canadian population. Like the 80%+ who in a poll, a couple of months ago (by the CBC, I believe) stated they believe the US is either completely or partially responsible for 9/11. Says something, doesn't it? And I also never said all of western Europe, I said "all those in Western Europe", meaning all those who disagree wtih the current policy. I'm not sure why that's so confusing.

And if we're talking about capitalistic greed, well, then I hardly think Europe's got the monopoly.
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:24 PM   #137
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Originally posted by STING2
Blacksword,

The USA engaged in a policy of containment and occasionally rollback of Soviet supported states for the sake of long term global security. I'm not going to justify every single tatical situation, but certainly the strategic goal was justified and saved much of the world from Global domination by the Soviets and or World War III.

The USA has certainly helped several dictators in the past that killed many of their own people, but there were more important priorities that demanded this course of action. Your not going tell me that the USA should not have sent Billions of tons of supplies to Stalins Soviet Union are you?


"Do you seriously think much of the world hates the US and considers it an imperialist nation out of envy and self-delusion?"

Yes I do. Much of this world you speak of live in countries that are dictatorships or in poverty without access to education. Certainly many in democratic countries may have this view, but from what I have studied and learned over the years, I strongly dispute such claims.
Guatemala had no ties to the Soviets, its government was democratic, its press free. True it did allow a communist party to organize, but in a free country there's nothing wrong with that It was only in the US and to a lesser extent the rest of the NATO alliance that comunism and socialism were rather ignorantly clumped in with their mutant totalitarian offshoot Bolshevism. The supposed reason for the US backed invasion was a shipment iof Chzek small arms that Guatemala had to buy since the US wouldn't sell arms to Guatemala. And in case you say the president was corrupt, well amongst the land to be redistrubted was several thousand acres of his own.

Chile was Democratic until Nixon decided its president Allende was a communist even though he vocally opposed any kind of violent uprising to force socialist changes. The US cut off all civilian aid to Chile, cut off all forign loans and illegally engineered an artificial collapse in the international price of copper (Chile's main export). All of which cause Chile's economy to nearly collapse and cause food shortages which lead to riots. The US then dumped millions into military aid tripling this and giving covert aid to any plots against Allende through the CIA. Don't believe me much of this was dug up by on Church comission in the late seventies which investiged teh matter. As we all know there was a military coup which put Pinochet on top. The Nixon government immediately nomalized relations and restored economic aid. All this was because Allende nationalized industry forcing out US corperations and was planning land redistibution. Chile had been democratic for decades up until 1972, and the military hadn't taken a role in politics for that time.

I could go on but I hope you'll get my point. These were not communist nations. There was never any communist conspiracies anywhere in Latin America. I wasn't saying give money and aid to the Soviets. I was saying the US should have taken itssteel toed boot of the necks of the peoples of Latin America. As a comparisson to Chile Canada nationized its petrolium industry at about the same time. Did that make us communists, or how about the national railroads or national airlines or how about our social security net. Those were socialist actions. Did that make us communists, Soviet puppets?

Nicaragua, The Dominican Republic, Haiti, Honduras aren't the Soviet Union and neither were countries like Zaire/Congo. The US propped up dictators in all the these countries and in Latin America created these dictatorships more or less as they arose from the US created National Guards in these countries, which in turn replaced the vicious rule of US Marines (US marines controlled most of Latin America from around 1910 to 1930, and these Marines were noted for numerous atrocities against Latin American populations).

Latin America hates the US due to over a century of oppression and economocic control. There's a lot of Canadinas here who consider the US imperialist. I'm currently taking a course which looks at America as Empire at my university.
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:28 PM   #138
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Only slightly bemusing...

If the U.S. installed the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

If the U.S. removes the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

Just making an observation...

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Old 02-05-2003, 11:04 PM   #139
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Originally posted by melon
Only slightly bemusing...

If the U.S. installed the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

If the U.S. removes the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

Just making an observation...

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Old 02-05-2003, 11:12 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Only slightly bemusing...

If the U.S. installed the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

If the U.S. removes the dictator, the U.S. is bad.

Just making an observation...

Melon
If the U.S. stays on its own territory, the U.S. is good.

But it never did. Slightly bemusing...
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Old 02-06-2003, 12:30 AM   #141
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hiphop said what i was going to say.
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Old 02-06-2003, 12:31 AM   #142
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my little lefty friends are soo selective.
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Old 02-06-2003, 01:05 AM   #143
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


If the U.S. stays on its own territory, the U.S. is good.

But it never did. Slightly bemusing...
fuckin' A...

I might be wrong, but I heard iraq invaded kuwait in 1990.
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Old 02-06-2003, 01:11 AM   #144
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Blacksward,

There is a good rebuttal to nearly everything you said but I don't have the time to go into it at the moment. Many people have a different view on a number of the conclusions and facts you brought out in addition to motives.
Courses I took at my University on US foreign Policy were objective and unbiased and there certainly were no courses that were so presumtive as to call America an Empire. Reinforcing your point of view is fine, but it also helps to challange it as well.
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Old 02-06-2003, 01:19 AM   #145
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HIPHOP,

"You know, STING2, this thread was about the nuclear options, but there are a row of other topics too, like "the average American consumer". You asked me to explain how you were betrayed. I therefore must have implied you were an average American consumer - which you are, maybe. Most average American consumers donīt have a family members who are part of 1% (to me, it seems the financial "elite" is more in the direction of 0,001%, but thats another story, and we donīt really need to discuss about that)."

Sorry to inform but its not unlikely for the average person to have an Uncle, Aunt, Grandparent, Cousin, that is in the top 1% in the USA. Certainly many people don't, but there are many that do. Just because one or two members of a large family are very rich, does not make the rest of the family necessarily very rich. But why are bringing this up? Why is this relevant?

I can disagree with your view points or opinions but still respect them.
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Old 02-06-2003, 01:25 AM   #146
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HIPHOP,

"If the U.S. stays on its own territory, the U.S. is good."

And when the USA does not stay on its own territory you think it is .....?
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Old 02-06-2003, 02:16 AM   #147
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not always their business?

i wont say always, because the more ive thought about it, the more i believe it was necessary (remember this is a pascifist speaking) for the us to join both world wars.

aside from that one, meeeeeeeehhh....

anyway, as a side note, canada lost a 105 year old man yesterday. i believe he was one of the last, if not the very last canadian soldier who fought in the battle of the bulge during world war 1.
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Old 02-06-2003, 02:43 AM   #148
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Blacksword, how're you liking your big fed government up there in Canada? "Latin America hates the US due to over a century of oppression and economocic control." Doesn't that control come from within? It's funny how the citizens risk their lives to get into the US. "There's a lot of Canadinas here who consider the US imperialist. " So? There's a lot of americans here who consider north america quasi-commumist. "I'm currently taking a course which looks at America as Empire at my university." America as an empire? I wouldn't go that far, but thank you!
Your interpretation of history is obviously biased and one-sided, I suggest you take a more objective courses.
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Old 02-06-2003, 04:56 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flag Pole Pear
the battle of the bulge during world war 1.
ww1? battle of the bulge was fought late in ww2. perhaps you mean some other battle...
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Old 02-06-2003, 06:17 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Canada...they are not supporting us? Interesting.

Western Europe? All of Western Europe? Or France and Germany?

Nah...no dictatorship there....Just a lot of greed. But that couldn't cloud their judgement now could it?

Food for oil benefits...hmmmmmmm
Allmost all countries in the world (including France and Germany of course) would be happy if there was a regime change in Iraq.
The main differences between France/Germany and USA/GB is the way - not the goal.
And yes - there are more options than war and doing nothing.

It would be verry helpfull for the peace in the world if some more people in the white house could see grayscales and not only black and white - fundamentalism isn't the best strategy to prevent desasters.

Emnid asked europeans if they are pro / contra military action in Iraq:




CountryWar (Yes | No | Just with UN mandat [%])

Czech republic 13 | 76 | 24
Denmark 10 | 45 | 38
Finnland 6 | 44 | 37
France 7 | 60 | 27
Germany 9 | 50 | 39
Great Britain 10 | 41 | 39
Greece 7 | 86 |22
Ireland 8 | 39 | 50
Italy 16 | 50 |33
Netherlands 7 | 38 | 51
Norway 6 | 54 | 30
Portugal 10 | 53 | 29
Spain 4 | 74 | 13

Russia 7 | 59 | 23


these are the opinions of the people - not of the government, but in democracies the opinion of them should be important too.

Klaus
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