Not So Free Speech

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Well, your comment is, frankly, lacking in the difference between the United States and Europe, in regards to what is obscene.

The United States protects hate speech, while massively cracks down on sexual speech, deeming the latter as obscene. Europe, in contrast, has less of a problem with sexual speech, but has a huge problem with hate speech--a likely result of the effect of hate speech in regards to Nazi Germany.

Brigitte Bardot, if she were in America, would likely be a member of the KKK. She has made previous offensive comments about racial minorities and immigrants before. She knows what she is doing, and she does not deserve our sympathy.

Melon
 
:shrug: Inciting racial hatred is a crime, she deserves to be punished for it. Besides, I find it hard to have any sympathy for someone who calls gay people "fairground freaks" and opposes marriage between people of different races.

Do you believe it's wrong she was fined for this, nbc?
 
You can judge her for her speech.

A government fine for speech is widely condemned on this board.

I guess, as melon suggests, some speech is more free than others.
 
I actually thought perhaps nbc was making a comment on Bardot's abuse of free speech but we'll wait for his response.
 
I am not supporting what she says in any respect. Inferring otherwise would be a mistake.

I am surprised at the lack of support for her right to say it.
 
nbcrusader said:
You can judge her for her speech.

A government fine for speech is widely condemned on this board.

I was wondering what your opinion was, rather than what you expected the majority opinion to be. :)

Anyway, do you think it's wrong to have laws against inciting racial hatred?
 
nbcrusader said:
You can judge her for her speech.

A government fine for speech is widely condemned on this board.

I guess, as melon suggests, some speech is more free than others.

This was not a government fine, this was a judical fine. The government has not in any way diminished her right to free speech. She may say anything she wants. However, she may be juridically liable for her publications. This is the same in the USA.

Should I publish a book accusing Bush of the gravest things, I'm almost 100% I will get a lawsuit for slander. Here the court fined her for inciting racial hatred.

It's not like there was a government body that decided she needed to pay $500,000 for a few 'fucks'. :tsk:

C ya!

Marty
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:


I was wondering what your opinion was, rather than what you expected the majority opinion to be. :)

Anyway, do you think it's wrong to have laws against inciting racial hatred?

Maybe you posted before you saw my follow-up post. :)


I have mixed feelings on the idea of "inciting racial hatred" laws. Going beyond protecting people from harm into the area of "thought crimes" is a principle that can be abused.
 
Popmartijn said:
This was not a government fine, this was a judical fine. The government has not in any way diminished her right to free speech. She may say anything she wants. However, she may be juridically liable for her publications. This is the same in the USA.

I am somewhat confused by the distinction you make. In the US, generally, a fine may only be imposed by a court if the government has passed a law allowing the fine.
 
nbcrusader said:
Maybe you posted before you saw my follow-up post. :)

I did. Thank-you for clarifying. :) BTW, sorry if my post sounded like I was demanding that you express your opinion or something, I probably could have worded that better and I hope it didn't sound too mean. :wave:
 
As an American citizen, I am opposed to fining members of the Ku Klux Klan for their hateful, disgusting statements about people who are different from them. As much as I find their beliefs absolutely repulsive and disgusting, they have the right to have these beliefs and yes, to express them in public. I do not like Brigitte Bardot's statements about Muslims, interracial marriage or homosexuality at all. They disgust me. But in the U.S. we don't have laws that call for fines for making these statements, and I don't think we should. Should France? That's for the French people to decide, not us. If these laws have the support of the majority of the French people, so be it.
 
Again, America is pretty unique in its support for the right to utter hate speech, but it is deep in our cultural tradition. It would be foreign to us otherwise.

I'm torn on the issue myself, just to make it clear.

Melon
 
Yeah, we are pretty different from other countries in toleration of hate speech. I have always been told that our society has "freedom of speech". That means stuff that you don't want to hear or read, as well as stuff you do want to hear or read. We do penalize the use of profanity and such, which alot of other societies don't. That's the U.S. for you, that's pretty much what we accept and don't accept. I don't know that I like that or not; it's just the way our culture is.
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:
:shrug: Inciting racial hatred is a crime, she deserves to be punished for it...

I agree. Here is where I reckon the line between free speech and a crime exists. It was even titled so on the link's description in the original post. Free speech isn't always criminal by instigating hate crimes. It is though, when it incites and then the act of inciting it is as well, I believe. That's too convoluted a sentence, but I guess what I'm trying to spit out here, is speech is merely a tool. What becomes of it is the problem.
 
I think that she is totally entitled to her right to speak out against the spread of islamist (key clarifier here) culture, in France there is a real danger from unchecked immigration, I draw attention to the substantial rise in antisemitism over the last few years (vandalism, violent attacks, murder), its always been a problem in Europe but it is growing again. 1st generation kids of Muslim immigrants from former French colonies grow up and many are incited to commit violence by extremist preachers who have also been alowed into the country. The French government won't do a thing about it because it will piss off a lot of people who feel that its an attack against Islam and others will put up with it because they can't seem to care about violence against Jews.

As long as people will put up with "death to the Jews" being preached at a freaking Mosque I have no problem condemning those that support or do nothing about it.
 
In case somebody misinterperates my opinion I am talking about Islamism and not Islam, I have no problem with people worshipping God freely but when people will preach religion as a tool of opression and violence my blood boils.

Heres a wikipedia bit.

Islamism is an ideology which holds that Islam is not only a religion, but a system that also governs the politicial, economic and social imperatives of the state. A crucial goal of Islamism is to take control of the state in order to implement the Islamist system.
 
Popmartijn said:
Should I publish a book accusing Bush of the gravest things, I'm almost 100% I will get a lawsuit for slander. Here the court fined her for inciting racial hatred.
yep :up:
 
Popmartijn said:
Should I publish a book accusing Bush of the gravest things, I'm almost 100% I will get a lawsuit for slander.

This is actually not true. As a public figure, you can say just about anything about GWB (and people have) without fear of a slander suit.

Before you support laws to ban or punish speech that "incites hatred," I would suggest you think through how that can be applied in a principled fashion.
 
Can you believe this one? :rolleyes: (sorry mods, the article is so short I copied the whole thing)

DETROIT, Michigan (AP) -- Jimmy Kimmel's late-night talk show was pulled off the air for a night following a joke the comedian made about Detroit during the NBA Finals.

Kimmel was talking to ABC sportscaster Mike Tirico during halftime of Tuesday's game when he said, "They're going to burn the city of Detroit down if the Pistons win, and it's not worth it." Tirico, an Ann Arbor resident, immediately objected, telling him to be careful about making fun of Detroit.

ABC made the decision to pull Wednesday night's "Jimmy Kimmel Live" from affiliates nationwide shortly after the program was taped that night in California.

Grace Gilchrist, general manager of Detroit ABC affiliate WXYZ, said the taped show featured more disparaging remarks about the city.

"Frankly, we were shocked. We thought it was uncalled for," Andrea Parquet-Taylor, WXYZ's news director, said of Kimmel's remarks.

Kimmel issued a written statement to address his comments about Detroit, whose Pistons are playing the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA Finals.

"What I said about Pistons fans during halftime was a joke, nothing more. If I offended anyone, I'm sorry," he said. "Clearly, over the past 10 years, we in L.A. have taken a commanding lead in post-game riots. If the Lakers win, I plan to overturn my own car."

ABC publicity manager Jennifer De La Rosa issued another apology from the comedian Thursday: "It was never my intention to cause anyone pain. I was trying to make a joke and I'm sorry it resulted in anything other than laughter."
 
You mean people live in Detroit?:wink:

This issue is a pretty sticky issue. I agree with nbc that the fine is dangerously close to labeling thought crimes. The fact that France has done little to stymie the rampant anti-semitism spewing from select mosques only shows its hypocrisy. Also, considewring I haven't read Bardot's book, it is hard to make a statement about her writings. If she is condoning violence against others that is one thing. However, if she only says that she disagrees with these issues then she should be free to say what she says, repulsive as it may be.
 
Lmao Headache :lmao:

That reminds me of something else funny. They are putting up this new upscale neighborhood nearby with really expensive houses where high falootin' types will be living. Guess what they named it: COMPTON! :laugh: So now when people joke about 'straight outa Compton' they will be so indignant, no, wait, Compton is a wonderful place! You know how high falootin' types like to brag about what neighborhood they live in, and it's got a name associated with gangs and the hood. So that was funny.
 
After a very long year in Paris, I find Ms. Bardot's right to her opinion and expression of such not so bad. Then again, I have biased views on the subject and hence you shouldn't believe a word I say. However, if I were to put these words in writing, well, that would be a different matter altogether. I would urge you to buy the book.

My book, that is, not Ms. Bardot's.

Sorry, got sidetracked - I think she should be given the chance to say whats on her mind.

No?

Ant.
 
Ant...is that you? I am flailing around without a script. Good to see ya!
 
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