Nosey neighbors' tapes used as evidence

[Liesje]

She'll get her day in court to answer to a judge if she feels she did nothing that was against the law.

We can't make laws based on "if". Should drunk driving be a crime only if it kills someone else? Should running a red light be a crime only if it kills someone else? etc, etc. No, no no.....

 

[RocknRollKitty]

But by then, she'll be broke, humiliated, her life in ruins, her reputation destroyed.

All the while, REAL abusers are never caught.

A few years ago, we had this weird couple here who had a son who was small, skinny and hyper. He roamed the streets at will and was out of control. The husband took a job delivering pizza at night, and the wife rode along for 'fun' leaving the boy behind. Sometimes he'd show up at other people's doors late at night saying he was tired of being alone. Still, no one wanted to be the bad guy and get him taken away. They were hoping to find the grandmother and tell her about it. Well, as time went on, two of my neighbors got mad at the woman for other reasons and decided to take their 'revenge' by getting her in trouble for this kid (mind you they never cared about him before) So they waited until she left with the husband that night and it got dark. Then they called the cops. (I saw this but was not part of it) They said the boy was alone in the house. The cops knocked but he hid and refused to answer. When they asked how old the boy was, some said 8 because he was so small, but someone who knew them better said he was 12. The cops said at 12 it is legal to leave a child home alone. So the neighbors insisted he was 'handicapped' (he was technically, learning disabled and on hyper medicine but they made it seem he was unable to move or something) So they shone lights in the windows. They didn't see the boy. The neighbors tried to convince them to break the door down and bust in but they said there wasn't even enough evidence there was even a child in there. Nothing was ever done. Nobody ever found out if he was hiding or rode with them that night. But the thing is, the people who called did not really care about the kid, actually, they couldn't stand him. They only wanted to cause trouble for the parents for revenge for a spat they'd had over a lawn mower. That's how people are around here.

Eventually, the husband lost both his jobs and the grandmother did take the boy.

 

[Liesje]

But by then, she'll be broke, humiliated, her life in ruins, her reputation destroyed.

BUT her life is not the issue here. The right of the child to be raised in a healthy environment outweighs the right of the mother to do whatever she wants.

 

[BAW]

I would have done exactly what those neighbors did. I've heard too many cases when something DID happen to a child left alone and neighbors knew about it but didn't feel it was their place to interfere. Each time a child is left home alone and nothing bad happens is pure luck...you're just tempting fate.

I was faced with child care problems many, many times when my boys were small and I told my boss point blank I would rather lose my job than leave them home alone. He was pissed but he didn't fire me either.

I do feel for this mother and for the child but desperation is not an excuse for making a really bad decision.

 

[RocknRollKitty]

oops double post

 

[RocknRollKitty]

As I said, I think the child's life was ruined too, already traumatize by the parent's divorce and the move, then to lose Mommy too? This woman was trying to get on her feet and those nosey busybodies knocked her right down into a hole she may never get out of. I could never do that to somebody.

If there was a history of abuse or neglect over time, yeah, something needs to be done. But not on a one time thing. They should have at least confronted her first and given her a chance. I'm sure she wouldn' t have done it again. Even if you mean well, it hurts them both in the long run more than it helps.

 

[RocknRollKitty]

I have one more thing to add to the gun story thing. I heard on the radio this morning that there was another pending court case against someone in the 'gun' family where the 'camerawoman' was to testify. This is something that happened last year and has nothing to do with the current incident, but I think this helps confirm my theory of 'bad blood' and even vindictiveness against the neighbors. I suspect this woman dislikes these people and has a vendetta against them and is watching every move they make. (I have known many people like this, sadly) Again, if she really did care only about the child's safety she could have gently taken the gun away or quietly alerted the parents to do so. The fact that she let him play so long so she could get a good tape instead of helping him proves this to me. Looks like she wanted them busted. She wanted to be on the news. What scares me is now that she has we will have a huge outbreak of nosey filmmakers snooping around in people's lives, whether or not they find anything. So if there is mass paranoia over being watched, don't laugh. It,s there, but it may not be big brother at all.

 

[BVS]

I have one more thing to add to the gun story thing. I heard on the radio this morning that there was another pending court case against someone in the 'gun' family where the 'camerawoman' was to testify. This is something that happened last year and has nothing to do with the current incident, but I think this helps confirm my theory of 'bad blood' and even vindictiveness against the neighbors. This woman dislikes these people and has a vendetta against them and is watching every move they make. Again, if she really did care only about the child's safety she could have gently taken the gun away or quietly alerted the parents to do so. The fact that she let him play so long so she could get a good tape instead of helping him proves this to me. No, she wanted them busted. She wanted to be on the news.

I find your outlook on people a little troublesome, but maybe I'm just too optimistic. But just because she is involved in two different cases with the family doesn't mean she has a vendetta. I know a lot of people who if they had neighbors that irresponsibly had guns laying around their property all the time would be concerned about safety, and also scared to ever set foot on their property. You don't know what someone with this type of disregard for safety is capable of. We don't know the whole side of either story. What we do know is the one neighbor has complete disregard for gun safety and the other has a video camera...that's it. Given the two, I rather have the woman with the camera peeking in on me rather than the gun toting kids. So I think we're assuming far too much to make any accusations as to the motives of the person.

 

[RocknRollKitty]

Maybe it's because I am from the same area, and I have met people like this personally, and they disgust me. I think things like this prove that you can never trust anyone and you can never be too paranoid, and that is a bad thing. Don't give people too much credit. ANY of them, gun, camera, or naked trashman.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What about that case where the woman was abusing her kid and it was caught on the security camera but the camera was following her into the carpark before anything happened, big brother is watching!

 

[BVS]

Maybe it's because I am from the same area, and I have met people like this personally, and they disgust me. I think things like this prove that you can never trust anyone and you can never be too paranoid, and that is a bad thing. Don't give people too much credit. ANY of them, gun, camera, or naked trashman.

The area doesn't matter, and you don't know her. I can say the same thing about the other family. I can say I know people just like them. They are redneck gun toting drunks and if the woman were ever to confront them they'd probably threaten her life. That's why she did what she did. It goes both ways. Is this going to make me lose faith in humanity...no.

This doesn't prove anything. You are still making huge assumptions based on a few people you know. You can't do that. If we were all to do that, we'd all hate each other and life wouldn't be worth living.

 

[RocknRollKitty]

I still think the fact that she did nothing to stop the kid playing with the gun, which was supposed to be the main concern, and went instead for the big show, tells it all. Even other people on the national news thought the same thing. If the kid's safety was the big thing, why not take the gun away instead of filming? Because if she had, the people wouldn't be in trouble and she wouldn't be on TV. What if the gun had gone off and the kid had died while she was getting this footage, would it have been worth it? The main concern should be the immediate safety of the kid.

 

[RocknRollKitty]

I also find it more than ironic that people who always complain about 'government in our lives' and 'right to privacy' are not more upset that people are sneaking around other people's private lives with cameras.

 

[RocknRollKitty]

What about that case where the woman was abusing her kid and it was caught on the security camera but the camera was following her into the carpark before anything happened, big brother is watching!

Yes, that is true. Weird thing about that is, I have seen people in stores do much worse and no one said a thing. Almost every time I am in the store, I hear someone tell a kid how they are going to 'whip their butt' once they get out in the car and how 'sorry' they're going to be if they don't shut up.

As a mother of small children, it is hard to know what to do when they act up in the store. I am not one to 'whip' or threaten them, but no matter what you do someone has a problem with it. There is no way you can raise your voice or especially not a hand to the kid, everyone turns around and stares and you don't know who thinks you're an abuser. On the other side of the spectrum, I have had strangers tell me that I'm wrong in not slapping a kid for crying for a toy, and that I am some kind of bad parent for not giving them the proper discipline. So when my kids act up, all I do is leave the store immediately with no comment. Many times I have bought the kid a toy I couldn't afford just to shut them up. I am continually disgusted by people yelling at their kids for crying for something as cheap as a candy bar, saying how they 'can't afford it' and to shut up, when there is a 12 pack of beer in the basket. Guess they could afford that

One more 'big brother' story: I know some people who went camping in a national park. Soon a ranger appeared, long after dark, and accused them of smoking pot. It turned out it was only cigarettes. But what disturbs me is that the rangers were watching campers with long range infared googles and binoculars! I'm sure they regularly see things such as campers having sex, but no matter what, it has now taken the fun out of camping in the woods to know someone is staring at your every move. Even if you are not doing a damn thing wrong, it still makes me uncomfortable and uneasy.

 

[Liesje]

I also find it more than ironic that people who always complain about 'government in our lives' and 'right to privacy' are not more upset that people are sneaking around other people's private lives with cameras.

I'm not trying to raise a stink here, BUT (and I'm saying this as fact, not my opinion) you cannot assume privacy in your backyard or where others can see you. I think in court, a camera is no difference than a pair of eyes. What I mean is, in my neighborhood there's an old man who sits on his porch all day and sees EVERYTHING. Say I was assaulted in the part of my backyard that he can see and he witnessed the entire thing. This is a jackpot in court. Now lets say he'd been recording everything he ever saw from his front porch and happened to get my assault on tape. Some call it "spying", which I guess it is, but, you can't punish people for seeing things that are in plain view. If someone saw something, ANYTHING, they saw it, regardless of whether it was through their eyes or a camera lens. Now, you can't trespass onto someone's property to tape them, or peek into windows and stuff like that, but if what's happening in the yard is visible to the public, then there's no right to privacy.

I understand you think it's weird or wrong for the people to be taping their neighbors, but taping is not illegal, leaving guns out where minors can use them is. There's no reason for taping to be illegal. Just b/c someone does weird things is no reason to make it inadmissible in court. If this were true, half the people in this country would be in trouble! Everyone does things that other people might consider odd or nosey, but these things don't endanger the lives of others.

 

[RocknRollKitty]

The life of the child was endangered further by a person who chose to keep filming instead of stopping him. I am glad to see one person in this thread, and several on TV, can see my point with this! This person is no hero to this child.

 

[BVS]

I also find it more than ironic that people who always complain about 'government in our lives' and 'right to privacy' are not more upset that people are sneaking around other people's private lives with cameras.

I'm not defending either side. I'm saying we don't know the full story. Yes maybe she could have gone over there and taken the gun out of the child's hand, but if she's tried before? What if she's been threatened, does she feel safe approaching the house, she doen't know how many more guns are in the house or who's in there.

All I'm saying is that given the story as shown I think her side is much more defendable than theirs. Motives aside I'd rather than the parents be punished rather than a snoopy neighbor. Neither one would I like as my neighbor. But I'm choosing the side of the lesser evil, it has nothing to do with government or big brother.

You are not going to be able to stop people with cameras, you just can't.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I also find it more than ironic that people who always complain about 'government in our lives' and 'right to privacy' are not more upset that people are sneaking around other people's private lives with cameras.

We are. I don't want the government keeping track of what books I borrow from the library, or who I call on my mobile phone or what political organizations I contribute to. I also don't want my neighbour taking photos of me sunbathing in the privacy of my own garden. I don't like my privacy being invaded whether it's by my government or my neighbour.

But turning people in is so extreme. Once the 'authorities' get into someone's life, it's ruined. That woman was only going to leave her alone one day, now she's lost her child, her job, and her home for one stupid mistake.

Then your problem is with the authorities response, not with the fact that they were notified of the problem. I don't envy social services one bit, they have to make incredibly difficult decisions like this every day of the week. Imagine trying to decide whether to take that girl away from her mother, with all the trauma and distress that causes to the whole family, or to leave the child in her family's care and risk the incident happening again. It's an impossible decision, how can you weigh up those risks?

Imagine a hypothetical situation based on this example: social services leave the girl with her mother, only the next week the mother can't find a babysitter so she leaves the girl home alone again. This time she isn't so lucky, this time when the girl gets scared, there's no neighbour to make sure she's okay and instead she runs into the street and is hit by a car. Maybe you'll say that wouldn't happen, the mother has learned her lesson, but what do you think your reponse would be when you found out that only a week earlier social services had been notified that this woman left her five year old daughter alone and failed to take any action? Are you saying you wouldn't question why they failed to act when they had chance?