North Korea Test-Fires Several Missiles - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-05-2006, 12:39 PM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Justin24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Mateo
Posts: 6,716
Local Time: 12:38 PM
Lets just start a thread on michael moore. I dont think Moore belongs in a North Korea Missile test thread.
__________________

__________________
Justin24 is offline  
Old 07-05-2006, 01:39 PM   #17
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 02:38 PM
I agree with Irivne. Containment works.

Here's the thing about totalitarian dictators. Their first priority is to stay in power. Kim knows that if he makes any kind of move to invade another country, the entire world will slap him down so fast he won't know what happened. He can posture and bluster about, and launch a few test missiles, but he knows that he's essentially a global pariah. It's not clear that he's got any real ambitions for global expansion (unlike say Hitler or the USSR or WWII era Japan). Dictators only expand or attack when they think they can get away with it and stay in power.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-05-2006, 01:40 PM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 02:38 PM
The humanitarian situation in N. Korea is real cause for concern, though. Talk about one of the worst places in the world to have the misfortune to be born.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-05-2006, 02:58 PM   #19
Refugee
 
JMScoopy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Near Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,268
Local Time: 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Rumsfeld, Cheney & Bush. The true Axis of Evil.

Cindy Sheehan...Michael Moore...IN DA HOUSE.
__________________
My Recordings
http://www.freewebs.com/jmscoopy
JMScoopy is offline  
Old 07-05-2006, 07:02 PM   #20
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,400
Local Time: 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
the embarassing failure of the NoKo missile launches leads me to believe that, once again, we've purposefully overestimated their military capabilities in order to drum up fear that will drum up funding for silly projects like the "missile defense shield."

Lil' Kim is completely insane, yes, which leads me to wildly disagree with this quote:

[q]No one is trying to defend Kim's actions against his own people. But in terms of what he has done to other countries and people other than North Korean citizens, he really does not rank up there near the top of the list.[/q]

life inside North Korea is far, far worse for the average citizen than inside Iraq ever was. granted, this is like comparing Alcatraz to Rikers to San Quentin, but North Korea is the closest we have to a 1950s-style Stalinist nation with forced labor camps, gulags, mass starvation, over 200,000 held for "political crimes," forced abortions, humans used as guinea pigs for the testing of biological and chemical agents, etc.

one of the reasons that NoKo has not invaded anyone else is because KJI has been effectively contained since the end of the Korean War, and he hasn't been supplied arms by the US or given tacit approval to go to war against neighbors we don't like.

containment, from a military standpoint, can and does work.

the humanitarian situation, however, is much more difficult to deal with.
Well, most of these rogue nations get their weapons from the former Soviet Union/Russia or china, the USA is not really a factor. North Korea had approval from the Soviet Union for its invasion of South Korea as well as millions of Chinese troops to support them when they started to lose that war.

Containment can and does work when applied in the right circumstances, but it has not worked every time it has been tried. World War I, World War II, The Korean War itself, as well as the Arab-Israeli Wars, and wars started by Iraq since 1980 all show that containment alone is often not enough to prevent war.

Its an open debate about why North Korea has not invaded another country since 1950. Perhaps they have been contained, or perhaps they have no real desire too. Regardless of the reason, the fact they have not remains and its in stark contrast to what has been seen in other regions of the world.
__________________
Maoilbheannacht is offline  
Old 07-05-2006, 07:12 PM   #21
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,400
Local Time: 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
I agree with Irivne. Containment works.

Here's the thing about totalitarian dictators. Their first priority is to stay in power. Kim knows that if he makes any kind of move to invade another country, the entire world will slap him down so fast he won't know what happened. He can posture and bluster about, and launch a few test missiles, but he knows that he's essentially a global pariah. It's not clear that he's got any real ambitions for global expansion (unlike say Hitler or the USSR or WWII era Japan). Dictators only expand or attack when they think they can get away with it and stay in power.
Then again, what a dictator thinks he can get away with and what the rest of the world thinks he would be willing to try can be two very different things. Saddam could have easily remained in power if he had been willing to cooperate with the international communities demands since the Gulf War. Of course, the fact that Saddam would caculate things in a different way probably should not be seen as to much of a surprise. Nearly all of his foreign policy actions since 1980 endangered his own regime and his ability to stay in power, even though he may not have percieved it that way. This is what makes a dictator really dangerous; when they are not detered from taking certain actions because they caculate things in a different way than the rest of the world does.
__________________
Maoilbheannacht is offline  
Old 07-05-2006, 07:42 PM   #22
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 11:38 AM
Not surprising that the North Korean missile experiment turns into a 2-bit referendum on the US administration.

What I find interesting is that North Korea launches the Taepodong-2, a missile that supposedly can reach the West Coast of the United States (a range that should make quite a few countries uncomfortable). The missile fails after 40-seconds and plops into the Sea of Japan. The pride of the North Korean military comes up a bit short (okay, fails miserably). This failed test is quickly followed by five short-range missiles (think Scud types) that all plop into the Sea of Japan. It struck me as someone wanted to cover-up the failure of the first missile by making it look like it was part of a series of short range launches.

It will be interesting to see if the UN can actually develop an action plan for North Korea. My guess is that a strongly worded resolution (even if printed on nice paper with a fancy seal) won’t have much of an affect. North Korea has been effectively contained for decades – with the Taepodong-2, they are trying to show how they can break their containment.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-05-2006, 07:48 PM   #23
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
North Korea has been effectively contained for decades – with the Taepodong-2, they are trying to show how they can break their containment.
Meaning that they're pretty much incapable of it, going by the results of their tests.

But certainly, Japan and South Korea has reasons for concern, considering that these rather unwieldy contraptions could accidentally hit them.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-06-2006, 01:59 AM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Zoomerang96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: canada
Posts: 13,459
Local Time: 01:38 PM
well that's what i was wondering...

are these missiles actually fully loaded or duds?

if they're actually the real thing, lord have mercy on north korea if one should land accidently in tokyo...
__________________
Zoomerang96 is offline  
Old 07-06-2006, 02:06 AM   #25
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht


Then again, what a dictator thinks he can get away with and what the rest of the world thinks he would be willing to try can be two very different things. Saddam could have easily remained in power if he had been willing to cooperate with the international communities demands since the Gulf War. Of course, the fact that Saddam would caculate things in a different way probably should not be seen as to much of a surprise. Nearly all of his foreign policy actions since 1980 endangered his own regime and his ability to stay in power, even though he may not have percieved it that way. This is what makes a dictator really dangerous; when they are not detered from taking certain actions because they caculate things in a different way than the rest of the world does.
Good point. One thing I forgot to mention is that one of the keys to staying in power is looking strong to the people you are oppressing, and that includes not being "pushed around" by other countries, and that can get iffy.

Saddam had a lot more to deal with. He had at least two groups within his country just itching to get rid of him (the Kurds and the Shiites) whearas Kim has really no organized opposition to speak of.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-06-2006, 11:36 AM   #26
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


whearas Kim has really no organized opposition to speak of.
Communist states tend to discourage organized opposition.
__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 07-06-2006, 12:26 PM   #27
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Communist states tend to discourage organized opposition.
Indeed.

Which is not to say that it can't exist, though. All totalitarian dictators discourage organized opposition, but in some countries it pops up anyway. It just doesn't seem to have in North Korea. Which in a way is unfortunate because now we don't have some North Korean "voice of opposition" that we can support.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-06-2006, 01:11 PM   #28
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 05:38 AM
I was of the impression that for North Korea, this nuclear thing is a bargaining chip to stay in existence. I really think that is it. I've heard the stuff as has anyone I suppose, like Irivine mentioned, about the truly dismal state of that society. Well, can a society in such a state of entropy last forever?

And no, North Korea didn't invade anyone in 1950. The fact there is a North Korea is a result of that conflict.
__________________
Kieran McConville is offline  
Old 07-06-2006, 04:08 PM   #29
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,400
Local Time: 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville
I was of the impression that for North Korea, this nuclear thing is a bargaining chip to stay in existence. I really think that is it. I've heard the stuff as has anyone I suppose, like Irivine mentioned, about the truly dismal state of that society. Well, can a society in such a state of entropy last forever?

And no, North Korea didn't invade anyone in 1950. The fact there is a North Korea is a result of that conflict.
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea(AKA NORTH KOREA) was established in 1948 following the establishment of The Republic Of Korea(AKA SOUTH KOREA).

North Korea invaded South Korea on June 25, 1950.
__________________
Maoilbheannacht is offline  
Old 07-06-2006, 09:25 PM   #30
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 05:38 AM
Yeah ok, I'm not stupid. I guess my point was, they saw themselves as remaking a new korea, not unlike how the Chinese communists took the mainland of china piece by piece in their civil war in the 1940s (leaving Taiwan, AKA the Republic of China), the fact they got only partway is the end result of the war.
__________________

__________________
Kieran McConville is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com