Norman Mailor: America "Too Patriotic" - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-07-2002, 01:48 AM   #16
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 01:15 PM
Quote:
Either way (supporting freedom or a country that champions it), America's the good guys.
1.) First of all, we haven't *always* been the "good guys."

2.) There are no "good guys" in war.




------------------
If you cannot live together in here, you cannot live together out there, let me tell ya. --Bono

You've got to cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice... --Bono
__________________

__________________
pax is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 01:59 AM   #17
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 560
Local Time: 12:15 PM
Quote:
Either way (supporting freedom or a country that champions it), America's the good guys.
Tell that to the people of Nicuragua.

Or Chile.

Or El Salvador.



[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 02-06-2002).]
__________________

__________________
DoctorGonzo is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 02:07 AM   #18
Refugee
 
Achtung Bubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: One Nation. Under God.
Posts: 1,513
Local Time: 12:15 PM
Or the people of postwar Europe.

Or postwar Asia.

Or the former East Germany.

Or the recently freed Afghanistan.

Yes, we're not perfect, DoctorGonzo; in fact, we're horrible, until you start comparing us to other countries who either have a history of doing nothing but oppress as many people as they can - and those countries who do nothing but placate thugs.
__________________
Achtung Bubba is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 02:10 AM   #19
Refugee
 
Achtung Bubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: One Nation. Under God.
Posts: 1,513
Local Time: 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora:
1.) First of all, we haven't *always* been the "good guys."

2.) There are no "good guys" in war.
In response to Point 1), even if we haven't always been the good guys, we are now.

And Point 2? Well, that might make a great bumper sticker, but it's still wrong.

Remember World War II?

Those guys that conquered half of Europe and tried to exterminate the Jews and others? The Nazis? They were the BAD GUYS.

Those guys that launched a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor and instituted the Bataan Death March? The Japanese? They were also the BAD GUYS.

The guys who tried to stop them, most notably the Western powers (the U.S., the U.K., Canada, etc.)? They were logically THE GOOD GUYS.

(And I know the obvious reply: I'm mentioning WWII again! Well, it's the obvious counterexample, and ALL I need is one example to prove Point 2) wrong.)

There is such a thing as good and such a thing as evil. There are those who start wars by hijacking planes and hurling them into buildings - and they're evil. And there are those who have no reasonable choice but to respond with overwhelming military force to protect its people and civilization (that archaic institution which frowns upon ramming planes into buildings); they are good.
__________________
Achtung Bubba is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 02:19 AM   #20
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 560
Local Time: 12:15 PM
Quote:
Yes, we're not perfect, DoctorGonzo; in fact, we're horrible, until you start comparing us to other countries who either have a history of doing nothing but oppress as many people as they can - and those countries who do nothing but placate thugs.
We are horrible regardless of who you compare us to. The fact other nations do bad things, doesn't change the fact what we do is horrible and completely inexcuseable.

And then we deny it.

And then lambast nations who do similar things as horrible "axis of evil" or whatever the latest catchphrase is.

Take for example Iraq. One example out of many, but a very clear indication of how corrupt the U.S is.

They gassed their own people, in return we gave them shitloads of money and weapons.

And Bush gets up and has the nerve to get up in front of the world and condemn Iraq for doing what it did, and any nation that supports people like Saddam Hussein.

The U.S's "War On Terrorism" has ZERO credibility with me. They don't care what nations or groups do. They are happily willing to ally themselves with any sort of criminal dictator or terrorist organization if it is convinent. As long as they aren't targeting the U.S or its interests that week.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 02-06-2002).]
__________________
DoctorGonzo is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 02:22 AM   #21
War Child
 
CannibalisticArtist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: West Coast babyeee
Posts: 511
Local Time: 09:15 AM
patriotism + too much of it=nationalism?
__________________
CannibalisticArtist is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 02:37 AM   #22
Refugee
 
Achtung Bubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: One Nation. Under God.
Posts: 1,513
Local Time: 12:15 PM
So, DoctorGonzo:

It's been recently announced that emails are now demonstrating John Walker Lindh dispised the United States. I quote:

In a September 1998 letter to his mother, the government says Lindh wrote that the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in East Africa "seem far more likely to have been carried out by the American government than by any Muslims."

Lindh allegedly suggested in a February 2000 e-mail that his mother should move to England: "I really don't know what your big attachement to America is all about. What has America ever done for anybody?"

Another e-mail sent in 2001 discusses family life in Pakistan, and Lindh was said to have written that the contrast with the United States "really makes me look upon American society with pity."


I'm not at all suggesting you're another Lindh, but please honestly answer this question for me:

Do you find yourself agreeing with this guy?

(I'm HONESTLY not going anywhere with this: but having read that story and your replies, it seems like a LEGITIMATE question.)

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 02-06-2002).]
__________________
Achtung Bubba is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 02:45 AM   #23
War Child
 
CannibalisticArtist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: West Coast babyeee
Posts: 511
Local Time: 09:15 AM
ok this is getting stupid.
__________________
CannibalisticArtist is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 02:50 AM   #24
Refugee
 
Achtung Bubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: One Nation. Under God.
Posts: 1,513
Local Time: 12:15 PM
Maybe, but the perspectives seem similar.
__________________
Achtung Bubba is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 04:20 AM   #25
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
theSoulfulMofo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,490
Local Time: 10:15 AM
Everyone has their opinions, and in a forum like this, I doubt anyone is going to change thier minds...

But my opinion sums up like this:

United We Stand
BUT PARANOIA ALL THE WAY, BABY!!!
__________________
theSoulfulMofo is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 05:13 AM   #26
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Saracene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia, some time after tea
Posts: 6,325
Local Time: 05:15 PM
"America has an almost obscene infatuation with itself. Has there ever been a big powerful country that is as patriotic as America?"

Yep, and it was called USSR.
__________________
Saracene is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 11:33 AM   #27
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 01:15 PM
Why are there no "good guys" in war? Because in war, both/all sides have to destroy things, kill people, injure people, and otherwise make innocents suffer.

I don't think I need to say that I deplore the events of September 11th, although I'll say it anyway. And I do hope that those who planned and perpetrated the acts are caught and brought to justice. But what really gets my goat are people who think we ought not give any more money to Afghanistan. WHY? Well, we destroyed their country. What was there, we wrecked a good bit of it. If we really want to be the "good guys," we will go back over there with billions of our own and our allies' money and put their country back together.

We are not good guys while we torture "unlawful combatants." We are not good guys while we are willing to withhold aid money to Afghanistan to keep their children from starving and keep families homeless. That is NOT good. Two wrongs don't make a right. Ever.

I am an American and I know that I am privileged to live in this country. I have a job, I pay my taxes, and I don't commit crimes any more serious than recreational pot smoking. I was outraged by the Taliban long before most of America even knew where Afghanistan was, because I had done research on their treatment of women and on RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.) But, I have never and will never believe that my country is right all the time, or that we are somehow allowed to do whatever we want in other parts of the world simply because of our power and economic status.

Too much patriotism IS dangerous. Just like too much religion or, for that matter, too much fried chicken or beer is dangerous. When you have too much of a good feeling, you stop thinking about it critically and you can't see all sides of the issue. And that is dangerous.

We are a nation of "good guys," that I will give you. We have many "good guys" among us, like firefighters, humanitarian aid workers, and just regular people who want to help make peace. But America--and our government--as the collective, pure, unspotted "good guys"?

Nope. Sorry. I'm not buying that.

------------------
If you cannot live together in here, you cannot live together out there, let me tell ya. --Bono

You've got to cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice... --Bono
__________________
pax is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 12:04 PM   #28
Refugee
 
Achtung Bubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: One Nation. Under God.
Posts: 1,513
Local Time: 12:15 PM
I'm not saying we're perfect, that we're the good guys all the time.

But how does the fact that we've screwed up in the past (and honestly reflecting on our mistakes) preclude us from doing the right thing now?

It doesn't.

In specifics, we probably should give more aid to Afghanistan, and I'll be shocked if we don't. Even IF we don't, that doesn't automatically make us either bad guys or equivalent to al Queda.

And, again, we're not torturing anyone.
__________________
Achtung Bubba is offline  
Old 02-07-2002, 01:43 PM   #29
War Child
 
Marko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Posts: 739
Local Time: 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene:
"America has an almost obscene infatuation with itself. Has there ever been a big powerful country that is as patriotic as America?"

Yep, and it was called USSR.
Are you for real? Do you know anything about USSR people in those 50-60 yrs (1930-1990)? They were opressed and tortured, they had tens of thousands of political prisoners - they were never patriotic as USA.
I'm not saying that being patriotic is bad, I just want to prove your statement is way off.

Bubba: Generaly there were good guys in WW2, but US did some horible acts together with alys - camps for Japanes people (don't tell me that you ad to act tough and cruel b/c they were acting that way - it just brings you a little bit closer to their level), Nuclear bombs and bombing of Hamburg, Dresdner - more civilian casualties than in any other attack in WW2. So these are gross acts by the good guys - that's when a good guy stops being a good guy.
I like the way you make your argument bubba, but we never share the same opinion...

------------------
"Everyone loves me
everyone thinks I'm georgeous
they wait for their turn to meet me..." - Me, 2001.
__________________
Marko is online now  
Old 02-07-2002, 01:44 PM   #30
Refugee
 
Anthony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,538
Local Time: 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora:
Why are there no "good guys" in war? Because in war, both/all sides have to destroy things, kill people, injure people, and otherwise make innocents suffer.

I don't think I need to say that I deplore the events of September 11th, although I'll say it anyway. And I do hope that those who planned and perpetrated the acts are caught and brought to justice. But what really gets my goat are people who think we ought not give any more money to Afghanistan. WHY? Well, we destroyed their country. What was there, we wrecked a good bit of it. If we really want to be the "good guys," we will go back over there with billions of our own and our allies' money and put their country back together.

We are not good guys while we torture "unlawful combatants." We are not good guys while we are willing to withhold aid money to Afghanistan to keep their children from starving and keep families homeless. That is NOT good. Two wrongs don't make a right. Ever.

I am an American and I know that I am privileged to live in this country. I have a job, I pay my taxes, and I don't commit crimes any more serious than recreational pot smoking. I was outraged by the Taliban long before most of America even knew where Afghanistan was, because I had done research on their treatment of women and on RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.) But, I have never and will never believe that my country is right all the time, or that we are somehow allowed to do whatever we want in other parts of the world simply because of our power and economic status.

Too much patriotism IS dangerous. Just like too much religion or, for that matter, too much fried chicken or beer is dangerous. When you have too much of a good feeling, you stop thinking about it critically and you can't see all sides of the issue. And that is dangerous.

We are a nation of "good guys," that I will give you. We have many "good guys" among us, like firefighters, humanitarian aid workers, and just regular people who want to help make peace. But America--and our government--as the collective, pure, unspotted "good guys"?

Nope. Sorry. I'm not buying that.

I agree, beautiful answer.

Ant.
__________________

__________________
Anthony is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com