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Old 03-30-2005, 05:26 PM   #46
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Originally posted by all_i_want


i am talking about an 'ideal' left. from its origins, left was about change, right was about stability. now they mean completely different things. actually im not even sure if they mean anything.

i am not boiling things down to simple labels, i am just saying these labels dont apply. i think you like to hold on to the idea of being on the 'right' a bit too much.

i see capitalism as progressive, and i see civil liberties as progressive. i find that people who want socialism yearn for way too much stability - 'the government will take care of things.' - and people who want a more traditional way of life are still clinging to the past.thats why i dont like to define myself as a 'left winger' or a 'right winger' because they dont mean anything.

neither of these 'labels' provide people with prescriptions on what to do on any given situation - and they shouldnt. i might be pro abortion and pro market economy. i just think we use things like 'oh the college professors are all leftists' way too easily.
I hold on to the right because that is what seperates me from some Chomskyite Libertarian socialist.

http://libertarian.org.au/
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Old 03-30-2005, 06:01 PM   #47
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what is a 'Chomskyite Libertarian socialist'? how are they libertarian AND socialist?
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Old 03-30-2005, 06:11 PM   #48
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Yeah, thats what I mean, they are the clowns that go around and talk tough about wanting to minimise government, rally on about how evil the US is and (down here) what a smarmy bastard Howard is then turn around and hand a socialist alliance pamphlet to you talking about the organisation that they adhere too which represents anything but minimal government, it is a group that has communist tendancies and pushes that agenda so it is really hypocricy.

They call themselves libertarians but they are most certainly not the same as I. There can be true libertarian socialists ~ who advocate removal of state but maintain that the good of the many as the principle driving force of a society but those ones are most certainly not that.

"the government that governs best, governs least"
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Old 03-30-2005, 06:20 PM   #49
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I think maybe it's time for an Ask the Libertarian Thread...
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Old 03-30-2005, 06:24 PM   #50
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Please no, those threads are stupid.
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Old 03-30-2005, 06:56 PM   #51
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The problem is, it is the maintream media who are legely responsible for trying to "categorize" people these days, and that was certainly not the case 5 yrs ago. What am I supposed to think when Time magazine, traditionally with a more Left slant (as opposed to Newsweek, which slants more to the Right), has a cover story which says in a nutshell, "According to polls, most Republicans go to church and pray often and are married , and most liberals attend church infrquently and are single or divorced."

How did they conduct that poll, and more importantly, WHY are we seeing it? Why was this such a big deal the month before the election? Then we see slogans like the "Culture of Life", and if you are personally offended by publicly exposed HYPOCRITE Jerry Falwell (remember the scandal?) on CNN reborn as a good guy, with no questioning or opoosition whatsoever, what do we think?

I despose the media ANYWHERE trying to tell me I fall on one side or the other.

FYI, I am:

1) a left-leaning Evangelical Christian who is personally against abortion but does not favor overturning Roe V Wade b/c I see that as the beginning of an intrusion into womens' rights;
2) AGONIZINGLY, AGONIZINGLY opposes gun control;
3)opposes the death penalty;
4)Is tolerant of gay bishops and opposes any Constitional tinkering, it's OK as long as they keep it out of their job performance; (if that makes sense);
5)Would tolerate "justice of the peace" gay marriage unions strictly as a way to encourge monogomous gay relationships and slow the spread of AIDS, but would fight TO THE DEATH against marriage performed by priests OR unions in which the bringing up of children is involved in the relationship...all this at a personal level but I still can't stand stigmatization of anybody and wouldn't go to a church that does not accept gay couples; (see how mixed up I am?)
6)Supports the War in Afghanistan but DESPISES Iraq;
7)thinks, nevertheless, that we aren't doing ENOUGH on the War on Terror, in terms of either time, effort, or money--this IS a war of World Historical proportions and it's time we woke up and recognized this; we have enmies who are out to destroy this country...and support a draft if we are committed to staying there....which we are, it's time to stop the lies, Dubya, and tell us the REAL reason we are there....but would I go if I could? NO. I was ready to fight the Serbian killers in Bosnia in 1992-94, who were commititng genoicide, though, and would have joined the Army to go then, if US troops had been sent to stop the slaughter....but we weren't.) Now, I'm 36, and too old to be drafted for Iraq, thank God. My poor kid sis has been called twice by both the Army and the Navy the past 2 weeks, she's 19, but thank God she can't go, b/c of medical reasons I won't discuss.
8)supports the legaliztion of both prostitution and medical pot;
9)Is disgusted by the fllth of popoluar culture these days and supports every fine imposed on TV by the FCC, and thinks cable should be fined as well.

So what neat category do I fit into?
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:06 PM   #52
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you'd fight to the death to prevent a gay couple from adopting?!?!?!!?
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:10 PM   #53
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"Libertarians" are, in the most strict of definitions, social liberals and economic conservatives. Personally, I think most of them are nuts, to be honest. I agree with them that the government should have no hand in our social lives beyond what is minimally necessary to prevent harm to others, but I think their economic policy is very out there. The Libertarians I have encountered in the U.S. generally want to reduce government to the level of near anarchy.

Essentially, we'd be recreating late 19th century capitalism in America, which had heavily concentrated monopolies that worked their labor 7 days a week often over 12 hours a day and at poverty-level wages. With no income taxes, since Libertarians don't like income taxes it seems, we'll be able to recreate that permanent standing aristocracy that will rival the Rockefellers and Vanderbilts.

I don't buy it, really. It's wishful thinking to expect a bunch of greedy individuals and greedy corporations to do what's best for society with no laws compelling them to do so. If it weren't for government regulation, we'd still be driving 7 mpg gas guzzlers, and with this oil price spike, we'd be fucked. Business will never ever go above and beyond what they have to do.

Melon
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
you'd fight to the death to prevent a gay couple from adopting?!?!?!!?
We all already had this discussion in another thread.

Melon
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:42 PM   #55
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sorry, sorry ... but as one who plans to adopt, i'm surprised to find someone who'd rather die than let me adopt a child.
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:43 PM   #56
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Quote:
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sorry, sorry ... but as one who plans to adopt, i'm surprised to find someone who'd rather die than let me adopt a child.
well, obviously someone's got to stop you!
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Old 03-30-2005, 07:58 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
"Libertarians" are, in the most strict of definitions, social liberals and economic conservatives. Personally, I think most of them are nuts, to be honest. I agree with them that the government should have no hand in our social lives beyond what is minimally necessary to prevent harm to others, but I think their economic policy is very out there. The Libertarians I have encountered in the U.S. generally want to reduce government to the level of near anarchy.

Essentially, we'd be recreating late 19th century capitalism in America, which had heavily concentrated monopolies that worked their labor 7 days a week often over 12 hours a day and at poverty-level wages. With no income taxes, since Libertarians don't like income taxes it seems, we'll be able to recreate that permanent standing aristocracy that will rival the Rockefellers and Vanderbilts.

I don't buy it, really. It's wishful thinking to expect a bunch of greedy individuals and greedy corporations to do what's best for society with no laws compelling them to do so. If it weren't for government regulation, we'd still be driving 7 mpg gas guzzlers, and with this oil price spike, we'd be fucked. Business will never ever go above and beyond what they have to do.

Melon
well said.

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Old 03-30-2005, 08:09 PM   #58
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I've never understood why this issue perplexes the right so much. You have a conservative student and a liberal student. Which one is more likely to enter business? Which one is more likely to enter teaching?
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Old 03-30-2005, 08:11 PM   #59
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That was a figure of speech. I will state that I will NOT descend to the level of the crackpots getting arrested outside Terri's hospice...they are a disgrace to the nation, and I don't see what they are trying to prove.

I meant "fight to the death" in a legal sense...everything within my voting or petitioning power.

Nobody has answered my question though. Do I fit into a "party:, or just how weird AM I?

If I were a judge, I'd look at cases case by case.The Letter of the Law is not that important.

(You know, it just occurred to me that the Homeland Security Police might be reading this. Personally, I couldn't give a frig

And Melon, in case you're wondering, I read yr Libertarian post and nope, I don't support that stuff. I favor Bog Gov't, but ONLY as a foil to Big Business. Big Govt civilizes things these days....or should. Historically, the two have been at odds. The problem is that Dubya has combined the two, in a new and lethal way.

I'll tell you though..this comes to me from a thread in another of my other favorite sites, (a movie site, oscarwatch.com)

.......a site called Americablog.com is reporting some chatter, rumors, right now that Jeb has called in the National Guard to remove Terri from the hospice by force..see if I can find a link for this, that's prob not right....

Back in a sec.
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Old 03-30-2005, 08:16 PM   #60
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OK...It's in the "Operation Resurrection" story on the homepage of americablog.org

I know nothing about this site, it's prob some leftist fringe group, but considering Jeb tried to send people in to take Terri by force a few days ago, according to the Miami Herald (www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/11229201.htm)
I'd give even the loony bin sites a read, at least, even if it's a load of BS.

The problem is, I actually have some free time to be on the Net tonight..maybe I had better leave....this place could get to me....
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