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Old 03-30-2005, 05:02 PM   #31
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Left and Right are economic axis and Authoritarian and Libertarian are degree of government axis with most of those "tests". That seems to work allright.

Left and Right is not an issue of progress versus stability; it is between controlled economics where the state provides for the citizens and looser economics where it is minimalist. Authoritarian versus Libertarian are degrees of government control in peoples lives.

You can have right wing and left wing libertarians although sometimes the ideology of left wing libertarianism gets a little tangled ~ how are you meant to provide for people without interfereing too much?

And what is this crap about a progressive agenda? Many on the right are pro-individual liberty, pro-gay rights, pro-gun ownership, pro-sexual equality etc. It has become a dichotomy between "progressive" left wing apparantly standing for such things and the "stable" right wing who must oppose them. Simply not true, you cannot boil things down to simple labels and you cannot allow certain groups to claim ideological positions as their exclusively.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:05 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Se7en


"libertarians" as popularly defined are economically conservative while socially liberal, or are located in the bottom-right quadrant. generally.
yep that makes some sense. it makes a lot more sense to define it that way. id define myself as a progressive capitalist, if there ever was one. by that definition, i am a libertarian then. does that mean i am right winger? but i am FOR gay rights, abortion, secular states and what not? because 'left' and 'right' are so overused that they dont mean anything anymore.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:05 PM   #33
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is there an echo in here?
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:07 PM   #34
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Originally posted by all_i_want


yep that makes some sense. it makes a lot more sense to define it that way. id define myself as a progressive capitalist, if there ever was one. by that definition, i am a libertarian then. does that mean i am right winger? but i am FOR gay rights, abortion, secular states and what not? because 'left' and 'right' are so overused that they dont mean anything anymore.
you are right wing insofar as you support capitalism...a purely economic standpoint.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:07 PM   #35
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Originally posted by all_i_want


yep that makes some sense. it makes a lot more sense to define it that way. id define myself as a progressive capitalist, if there ever was one. by that definition, i am a libertarian then. does that mean i am right winger? but i am FOR gay rights, abortion, secular states and what not? because 'left' and 'right' are so overused that they dont mean anything anymore.
Okay question: Do you believe that the government is there to provide for the people or do you think that people shouldn't rely on it?
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:09 PM   #36
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Most of my professors in school were liberal, but they were quite a diverse lot. We had one lady, an English prof, who was very old-fashioned in alot of ways and preferred girl students who wore dresses or skirts and blouses to girls who wore jeans. She voted Democratic, however. One professor, a veteran, was an avowed conservative. He is African-American and got into a fight with the other history professors over an African studies department, he opposed it. I don't know why academically inclined people tend to be liberal, but they do.
This last line made me laugh outloud. Thanks for the insight (or lack thereof.)
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:12 PM   #37
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What about the "Catholic Workers"? Their socialist economic philosophy is driven by their religion. Are they "right wing"?
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:15 PM   #38
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What about the "Catholic Workers"? Their socialist economic philosophy is driven by their religion. Are they "right wing"?
since we are attempting to limit the x axis, or left & right, to economics. no, they are not right wing.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:18 PM   #39
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Originally posted by drhark
What about the "Catholic Workers"? Their socialist economic philosophy is driven by their religion. Are they "right wing"?
I take it you're talking about Dorothy Day's group. It's not socialist; it's liberal. The last thing Dorothy did in politics was get busted for participating in Cesar Chavez's farm worker movement in the '70's. She was in a demonstration and I forget exactly why the demonstrators were busted, maybe they didn't have a parade permit.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:20 PM   #40
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer

And what is this crap about a progressive agenda? Many on the right are pro-individual liberty, pro-gay rights, pro-gun ownership, pro-sexual equality etc. It has become a dichotomy between "progressive" left wing apparantly standing for such things and the "stable" right wing who must oppose them. Simply not true, you cannot boil things down to simple labels and you cannot allow certain groups to claim ideological positions as their exclusively.
i am talking about an 'ideal' left. from its origins, left was about change, right was about stability. now they mean completely different things. actually im not even sure if they mean anything.

i am not boiling things down to simple labels, i am just saying these labels dont apply. i think you like to hold on to the idea of being on the 'right' a bit too much.

i see capitalism as progressive, and i see civil liberties as progressive. i find that people who want socialism yearn for way too much stability - 'the government will take care of things.' - and people who want a more traditional way of life are still clinging to the past.thats why i dont like to define myself as a 'left winger' or a 'right winger' because they dont mean anything.

neither of these 'labels' provide people with prescriptions on what to do on any given situation - and they shouldnt. i might be pro abortion and pro market economy. i just think we use things like 'oh the college professors are all leftists' way too easily.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:21 PM   #41
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I don't like the so called paleoconservatives (think Pat Buchanan) as much as I don't like socialists.

They are the conservative right wing who epitomise bigotry and hold anti-internationalist stances. Oddly enough they are often the very same ones who are allied with the so-called "progressives" finding common ground with anti-war (for different reasons) and anti-zionist (at heart for the same reason) tendencies.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:22 PM   #42
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Originally posted by odowdpa


This last line made me laugh outloud. Thanks for the insight (or lack thereof.)
It's true, I have no idea why these people tend to be liberal. As a liberal myself I don't exactly think it's a disgrace, but it's not something I'd want to pass a big time judgment on as it's a matter of the particular values and experiences of many different people.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:23 PM   #43
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Okay question: Do you believe that the government is there to provide for the people or do you think that people shouldn't rely on it?
people get to take care of themselves. i think governments are a very inefficient way to take care of anything. governments should stay hands off from economics.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:24 PM   #44
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I don't like the so called paleoconservatives (think Pat Buchanan) as much as I don't like socialists.

I really don't like Buchanan, either.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:25 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I don't like socialists.

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