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Old 03-29-2005, 09:30 PM   #16
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Ancient Chinese proverb:

If you're under 30 and conservative, you don't have a heart;

If you're over 40 and liberal, you don't have a brain....
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Old 03-29-2005, 10:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


The irony is that "South Park" is very liberal-minded, ideology-wise. The show is written as a parody of small-town ideals and the small-town POV that they do not share.

Very funny show nonetheless.

Melon
I disagree, both Trey and Matt are self-styled libertarians and they call both the right and liberals out big time, but at the core their message is one of libertarianism.

Quote:
Q: I don’t know if you’ve heard about this, but there have been essays written about the concept of the “South Park Republican.”

TREY: Yeah, we have seen that. What we’re sick of — and it’s getting even worse — is: You either like Michael Moore or you wanna f***in’ go overseas and shoot Iraqis. There can’t be a middle ground. Basically,if you think Michael Moore’s full of s***, then you are a super-Christian right-wing whatever. And we’re both just pretty middle-ground guys. We find just as many things to rip on on the left as we do on the right. People on the far left and the far right are the same exact person to us. [laughs]
http://movieweb.com/news/news.php?id=5406

Oh and they certainly have no soft spot for MM after BFC
Quote:
Conan: Michael Moore is depicted in this film (Team America) along with a lot of other celebrities. And I talked about it with one of our producers after we saw the movie because you guys sort of go after Michael Moore. And it thought, “That’s surprising,” because Michael Moore was in Bowling for Columbine, it’s his movie, he interviewed you (points to Matt) on Bowling for Columbine and I remember thinking I thought those guys were friends with Michael Moore. Did you have a falling out?

Matt: It wasn’t so much a falling out. He asked me to do the interview for Bowling for Columbine because I grew up in Littleton, Colorado. So I thought, okay, I’ll talk about growing up in Littleton, Colorado. What he did that made us a little angry is he put an animation in right after my piece in Bowling in Columbine that is very South Park-esque in its look. And I think 99% of the people who saw Bowling for Columbine think Trey and I did that animation.

Conan: I thought it was yours until my producer told me that he talked to you guys. I thought that you had done that animation.

Trey: No no. He asked us if we would do an animated thing for him, and we’re like, “You know, we grew up in Colorado, our parents have guns, it’s just, you know, whatever.”

Conan: I’m wearing a gun right now. It’s just accepted. (Audience laughs)

Trey: Yeah exactly. We strongly believe in guns. So then he kind of did it anyway. So then later when he did Fahrenheit 911, people were like, well, Michael Moore kind of lies and manipulates to make people think certain things. We’re, like, personal victims of that. So we basically decided to make him into a puppet and blow him up. (Referring to Team America movie)

Matt: I mean, he didn‚t explicitly say, “Matt and Trey did this animation.” But he made it look like it. And that’s what he does in his movies. He uses two images together and creates meaning where there isn’t none.

Trey: And he’s fat.
Taken from Conan O'Brian transcript
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Old 03-29-2005, 11:31 PM   #18
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I was liberal before i ever got to college .

Pretty much all my professors are really liberal, but I what do you expect in the sociology department. I think it really depends on the department.
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Old 03-30-2005, 03:17 AM   #19
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And I was very right wing libertarian during HS, although I would beat up year nine me for being such a fool about the USSR.
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Old 03-30-2005, 04:51 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Blame South Park.

are you still under the illusion that today's republican party is a safe place for libertarians? because Bush (with Dobson, Rove, Fallwell, Robertson, Santorum and Delay pulling all the strings, and with Guilianai, Schwarzenagger and McCain's only purpose to not frighten the children during the convention) has altered what American Republicanism now is. It has two powerful impulses - a religious drive that puts theological certitude before any prudential or legal reasoning and a growing contempt for an independent judiciary. for those of us who live in this country, it's been clear now for a while that the religious right controls the base of the Republican party, and that fiscal left-liberals control its spending policy. that's how you develop a platform that supports massive increases in debt and amending the Constitution for religious right social policy objectives. states' rights are only valid if they do not contradict religious teaching. so a state court's ruling on, say, marriage rights or the right to die, or medical marijuana, must be over-ruled - either by the intervention of the federal Congress or by removing the authority of judges to rule in such cases, or by a Constitutional amendment.
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:01 AM   #21
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I went two years to a "secular" urban school, then transferred to a suburban Catholic college. I loved the Catholic college just for the kind of school it was. I never focused on the liberal/conservative issue, just on how good the classes and professors were. I did enjoy my religion courses, especially the ones that focused on other religions.

It never once felt like I was being "indoctrinated" into political conservatism. Maybe I was just young and naive
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Old 03-30-2005, 05:43 AM   #22
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Most of my professors in school were liberal, but they were quite a diverse lot. We had one lady, an English prof, who was very old-fashioned in alot of ways and preferred girl students who wore dresses or skirts and blouses to girls who wore jeans. She voted Democratic, however. One professor, a veteran, was an avowed conservative. He is African-American and got into a fight with the other history professors over an African studies department, he opposed it. I don't know why academically inclined people tend to be liberal, but they do.
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Old 03-30-2005, 09:42 AM   #23
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i'm a music major so honestly i don't even know if most of my professors are conservative or liberal. music is music. although i could probably wager a guess.

like some others have said, depending on the department, what difference does it make? chemistry is chemistry no matter who is doing the experiment.

now i did take a class on marx and marxism...those professors were clearly liberal but what do you expect when you sign up for a course lke that?

i had a poli sci course once, the professor was liberal but taught the class from a VERY unbiased position. he never once interjected to stay he supported or disagreed with any ideology we discussed. he just laid them out for us.

now, the class i took on latin america was quite eye opening. you don't really learn about u.s. foreign policy and its effects in high school. i was just glad for some facts and a viewpoint that differed from the idea that the u.s. is the patron saint of all that is good and holy...this country's high school curriculum is where people are being indoctrinated, not in college.
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Old 03-30-2005, 04:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If you can get an entrenched ideology then that becomes "the system" and when people get fed up and rebel against it they come over to the right.
actually they go over to the left, i think. conservatives are in no way rebels.
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Old 03-30-2005, 04:23 PM   #25
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Barry Goldwater would wretch his guts out if he saw what's become of the Republican Party today.

The Republican Party that I belonged to stood for fiscal restraint. Reaganomics & whatever the hell Bush has been pushing for the past 5 years bears no resemblance to any sort of policy of fiscal restraint that I've ever heard of.

But the fiscal idiocy exhibited by our government during the past 5 years isn't what bothers me the most about the so-called compassionate conservatist movement, though. What irks me is the fact that my fellow Republicans have the audacity to believe that they know which is proper for me to read, what to listen to, and which God to pray to.

They don't. They never have, never will, and until they stop acting like boot-clicking fascists, they won't get my vote either.
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Old 03-30-2005, 04:24 PM   #26
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I suppose that depends on where you are, my family leans to the left, in High School there were certainly some teachers who brought politics into the class.

If you doubt that there are any right wing rebels take a gander over at the libertarian movement and anarcho-capitalists.
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Old 03-30-2005, 04:26 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



are you still under the illusion that today's republican party is a safe place for libertarians? because Bush (with Dobson, Rove, Fallwell, Robertson, Santorum and Delay pulling all the strings, and with Guilianai, Schwarzenagger and McCain's only purpose to not frighten the children during the convention) has altered what American Republicanism now is. It has two powerful impulses - a religious drive that puts theological certitude before any prudential or legal reasoning and a growing contempt for an independent judiciary. for those of us who live in this country, it's been clear now for a while that the religious right controls the base of the Republican party, and that fiscal left-liberals control its spending policy. that's how you develop a platform that supports massive increases in debt and amending the Constitution for religious right social policy objectives. states' rights are only valid if they do not contradict religious teaching. so a state court's ruling on, say, marriage rights or the right to die, or medical marijuana, must be over-ruled - either by the intervention of the federal Congress or by removing the authority of judges to rule in such cases, or by a Constitutional amendment.
I wasn't taking about the GOP, I was talking about a statement of young folks being right wing. Thankfully Australia is one country where we have very minimal religion and a more or less balanced electorate.

Furthurmore it seems that the majority of Americans are very much against the government stepping on the toes of the judiciary. Things change and I do not think that it is possible for a party to be beholden to the religious right forever.
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Old 03-30-2005, 04:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark
Ancient Chinese proverb:

If you're under 30 and conservative, you don't have a heart;

If you're over 40 and liberal, you don't have a brain....
Erm...that would be Winston Churchill who said that. Ancient China didn't have 'liberals' and 'conservatives.'

Quote:
from the Washington Post link above
The study appears in the March issue of the Forum, an online political science journal. It was funded by the Randolph Foundation, a right-leaning group that has given grants to such conservative organizations as the Independent Women's Forum and Americans for Tax Reform.
Hmmmm.

Rothman and Lichter (the study's authors)...ah, I remember these guys! They wrote a book called The Roots of Radicalism: Jews, Christians and the New American Left (1982), which was a collection of crotchity rants about the degeneration of American values in the face of relentless attacks from the leftist Jewish media. Like this little gem (p. 108):

Americans of Jewish background developed a direct and important influence on adolescents and even pre-adolescents in other ways. Starting in the 1950s, Mad Magazine developed
wide popularity among this group, and, as Marie Winn had pointed out, it played a significant role in 'the move toward free expression among children; its relentless exposure of parental dishonesty caused shock waves and reaction among its young readers.' From the beginning Mad's editors have been Jewish and, as they themselves would agree, hostile to the American civic myth.


Alfred E. Neumann, you've done it again!

Quote:
Originally posted by indra
Actually, nbcrusader, I find far to many young folks horrifyingly conservative.
Judgments aside, there's plenty of data to back up your impression. The most mainstream and widely reported source is probably the Pew Trust's PACES Survey from 2002, which you can read at their website (pewtrusts.com). Some of its findings:

--School prayer. Fifty-nine percent of adults ages 27 to 59 want public schools to allow prayer at official school activities, such as commencements. Among teenagers, 69 percent support school prayer.

--Federal aid to faith-based charities. Forty percent of adults ages 27 to 59 support such funding. But support reaches 59 percent among the college-aged and 67 percent among younger teens.

--Religious conservatives. Young Americans show somewhat more warmth towards religious conservatives than older adults. Individuals ranked their feelings for these groups on a scale from zero for "cold" to 50-100 for varying degrees of "warmth." Although no age group showed much warmth to Christian fundamentalists, 33 percent of youths ages 15 to 26 gave them a rating over 50; 26 percent of Americans over age 26 gave a similar score.

--Abortion. Government restrictions on abortion are supported by 34 percent of adults over 26, while about 44 percent of youths ages 15 to 22 support such restrictions.



But despite all the above, I think the findings of Rothman and Lichter's survey are almost certainly correct. I don't have a convincing explanation for why this is, though. And apparently no one else does, either.
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Old 03-30-2005, 04:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I suppose that depends on where you are, my family leans to the left, in High School there were certainly some teachers who brought politics into the class.

If you doubt that there are any right wing rebels take a gander over at the libertarian movement and anarcho-capitalists.
how do you define left-right? is it capitalism vs socialism? is it unlimited liberties vs. state control? is it religion vs. secularism? progress vs. stability?

also, would you define yourself as a libertarian?

now that ive read a bit about libertarians, i have to agree that they are kinda rebellious, overthrowing the state and all that. actually the definitions of left and right have become so unclear that its pretty impossible to distinguish them in a healthy manner.

originally, the 'leftists' sat at the left side of the french parliament, who wanted to depose the king, and 'right' sat onn the.. well right side of the parliament. left, in my opinion is not about 'state control' it is progressive. right is on the other hand, conservative. left wants change, right wants stability. thats how i see it. capitalism vs. socialism got tangled up with these, unfortunately. id say libertarians, pushing a rather progressive agenda are pursuing a leftist agenda. and so is the green party. left-right is simply a dichotomy between progress and stability, the way i see it.
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Old 03-30-2005, 04:57 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want


how do you define left-right? is it capitalism vs socialism? is it unlimited liberties vs. state control? is it religion vs. secularism? progress vs. stability?

also, would you define yourself as a libertarian?

now that ive read a bit about libertarians, i have to agree that they are kinda rebellious, overthrowing the state and all that. actually the definitions of left and right have become so unclear that its pretty impossible to distinguish them in a healthy manner.

originally, the 'leftists' sat at the left side of the french parliament, who wanted to depose the king, and 'right' sat onn the.. well right side of the parliament. left, in my opinion is not about 'state control' it is progressive. right is on the other hand, conservative. left wants change, right wants stability. thats how i see it. capitalism vs. socialism got tangled up with these, unfortunately. id say libertarians, pushing a rather progressive agenda are pursuing a leftist agenda. and so is the green party. left-right is simply a dichotomy between progress and stability, the way i see it.

i think it's generally understood that there are for quadrants that encompass political/economic ideologies.

think of it like a good old 2D graph from high school math.

the x axis signifies that battle over economics. the extreme left of the the x axis is communism and the extreme right is neoliberalism. the y axis signifies the battle over government involvement with society. the extreme top of the y axis is authoritarian and the extremem bottom is libertarian.

does that make sense? "libertarians" as popularly defined are economically conservative while socially libera, or are located in the bottom-right quadrant. generally.
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