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Old 10-14-2001, 07:58 PM   #1
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No war topic - war approvers don't even think of looking or posting

We've been quite bashed by "liberty, democracy and freedom", but now we should get a quiet "place" to talk about this war in Afghanistan. I created it, now we can all talk quietly.


What created the present situation, i.e.: terrorists attacks ? Some say it's madness, some say it's people being jealous (????) of the United States, others say it is against the US dominant and irresponsible position in the world... what do you think it is ?


cheers

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Celui qui n'aime pas le vin, les filles et le chant reste fou sa vie durant. - Martin Luther
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Old 10-14-2001, 08:21 PM   #2
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How am I supposed to know? I dont even know who did it!

Damn it! John!!! I wasnt supposed to post again!!!

Love to you boy!

Love and peace on earth!


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Patti
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Old 10-14-2001, 09:16 PM   #3
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trying to get a propaganda thread going?

~rougerum
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Old 10-15-2001, 12:37 AM   #4
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Actually, I'm bowing out of this discussion.


[This message has been edited by pub crawler (edited 10-14-2001).]
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Old 10-15-2001, 01:13 AM   #5
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what would Che Guevara do, eh?

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Old 10-15-2001, 10:45 AM   #6
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Why is this propoganda rouge? Would that make all supporting war threads propoganda too?
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Old 10-15-2001, 09:00 PM   #7
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You probably don't know Che Guevara to ask me this question, but in the light of what I know I will try the best to answer this question and educate your culture.

Knowing what he did and what he thought, he would probably calm down Fidel Castro and succeed in itm then he would try to understand the reasons, thus speaking about it to the United Nations (but the United Nations are manipulated by I-don't-know-who-huuuu???). The UN would have a debate on this, but no one would care since Guevara's life dosen't worth the life of an american. Or the UN will pass a resolution, but no one would care about it.... like almost every resolution the UN passes and votes.

But what's got into you Americans ? Are you all muppets ? Open your eyes. Your companies are making slaves of children in Africa and Asia, you impose your law everywhere in the world, military or politically. You control the world, you don't sign the major environmental/military conventions in the world, you don't pay your duties to the United Nations (oh, sorry.. you paid like 550 millions two weeks ago, on a 20 billions debt own to the UN), you manipulate governments. You control the world, but you don't want to have the responsabilities for it. Through the World Back you are dividing the world in sections : profitable/non-profitable/slaves for your companies. And then excpect the rest of the world to cry for what happened ? Yes it's sad, yes I felt concerned about it. Yes I hate Bin Laden and terrorism. But aside from the Governments, little are the people saying "Go America, go for war". Open your eyes. You want me to think you were victims ??? You expect me to approve you ? You want me to say "You are the best, you are democracy, I love you" ? Well don't count on me. You are not victims, you make victims. I'm sick, very sick, of watching TV and listening to the news and see how you became now, how you love yourself, how you hate every one not thinking like the majority of the people in your country, how you are arrogant, how you see yourselves as the superiors of the world. Because before trying to make statements of democracy and liberty, you should look into your own social problems, because now you are falling. Your empire is getting down, your empire is falling. And don't expect the majority of the people on this planet to cry for you.

You are blind. You even don't want to watch the world eye to eye and see how you are messing up the environment/sociology/politics of this planet.



------------------
«Je suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me défendrai... je ne capitulerai pas.»
"I am the last man. Against all, I will defend myself. I shall not capitulate".
" Soy el hombre pasado. Contra todos me defenderé. No capitularé. "
"Ich bin der letzte Mann. Gegen alle verteidige mich ich. Ich kapituliere nicht. "
"Sono l' ultimo uomo. Contro tutti mi difenderò. Non capitulate."

- Eugène Ionesco, "Rhinocéros"
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Old 10-15-2001, 09:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holy John
Your companies are making slaves of children in Africa and Asia, you impose your law everywhere in the world, military or politically.
No, those are YOUR companies profiting from slavery in Africa. Example: in Sudan, Canada's Talisman Energy company does business at refineries for which Sudan's extremist government uses slave labor. Other companies doing business in Sudan include Greater Nile Petroleum Operating Company, Lundin Oil, Petronas, Sudapet, Gulf Petroleum Company, China National Petroleum Corporation, National Iranian Gas Company, OMV, and Royal Dutch/Shell. American companies are forbidden from doing business in Sudan due to sanctions, which I fully support. For some reason, your extremist buddies with Sudan's Shar'ia government in the northern capital of Khartoum believe it is acceptable and profitable to enslave the Christian and animist populations from the South. I don't.

And when you talk about us imposing "our law" around the world, is it the laws of religious freedom that you oppose in the situation at hand? Believe it or not, extremist governments that base themselves on religion desire nothing short of ethnic cleansing. Osama bin Laden and his folks, the Taliban, and Sudan's Khartoum government all want want to rid the entire region of non-Muslims and Muslims who do not follow their extremism.

I was not going to post into your little private thread until I saw what you wrote. Thank you for giving me the forum to express my feelings though.

~U2Alabama
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Old 10-15-2001, 10:08 PM   #9
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I know about those Canadians companies, what d'you think ? I know, and every time I get a chance to protest against them, I do. But what about Nike using child labor in Africa and Asia ? How about McDonald's ? As weird as it can sounds, this company is the world's most hungry for trees and in my country, most companies who don't care for environment are american ones. Tommy Hilfiger using child labor. Coca-Cola doing repression against Workers Union's people in south america ? Using Africa as a dump for your old weapons ? How's that ? I know my country isn't clean at all, it's not, but your isn't and the influence is bigger. Your country own 50% of the canadian economy... you're going down, we're going down too.

------------------
«Je suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me défendrai... je ne capitulerai pas.»
"I am the last man. Against all, I will defend myself. I shall not capitulate".
" Soy el hombre pasado. Contra todos me defenderé. No capitularé. "
"Ich bin der letzte Mann. Gegen alle verteidige mich ich. Ich kapituliere nicht. "
"Sono l' ultimo uomo. Contro tutti mi difenderò. Non capitulate."

- Eugène Ionesco, "Rhinocéros"
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Old 10-15-2001, 10:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holy John:
<snip>

But what's got into you Americans ? Are you all muppets ? Open your eyes.
Oh - us Americans? Yeah - you must have it all figured out from your position. Let me tell you that I call myself Miss Piggy and fiddle with my marionnette strings as often as I can. I'm trying to open these eyes - but they're just so used to being closed!! Dammit - why won't they open?! Oh please tell me! Oh please! Do not assume to know what millions of American citizens are thinking! Please know that many of us protest just like you. Please do not assume that I was not out walking and picketing when our election became a silly debacle. Please do not assume that I am not actively involved in my local goverment and grass roots campaigns. And furthermore, never assume you know who you are talking to when posting blanket statements.

<snip>
Quote:
You want me to think you were victims ??? You expect me to approve you ? You want me to say "You are the best, you are democracy, I love you" ? Well don't count on me. You are not victims, you make victims. I'm sick, very sick, of watching TV and listening to the news and see how you became now, how you love yourself, how you hate every one not thinking like the majority of the people in your country, how you are arrogant, how you see yourselves as the superiors of the world. Because before trying to make statements of democracy and liberty, you should look into your own social problems, because now you are falling. Your empire is getting down, your empire is falling. And don't expect the majority of the people on this planet to cry for you.
Isn't it nice to have an anonymous position to pontificate from? Isn't it nice to think that you have it all pegged? Do you know what I ate for dinner tonight? Do you know where I was born? How about the guy who works at Discount Drug Mart in your city? You don't? Then why presume that I think I am superior? Or my family or my town or state for that matter? Why post here and say such outlandish things when there is nothing to become of it? Why assume so many things because the Media sets the news agenda? Do you think I have control over what your news outlets choose to show? I don't. I don't know you - and would never assume to tell you what your world view is where you come from. Walk a mile in a man's shoes they say. Perhaps you should do the same before you presume to tell me that I am blind and a puppet.


------------------
Here's to the few who forgive what you do
and the fewer who don't even care
--Leonard Cohen

[This message has been edited by HelloAngel (edited 10-15-2001).]
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Old 10-15-2001, 11:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holy John:
But what's got into you Americans ? Are you all muppets ?
Unforunately, some of the Muppet-American population is friendly with The Osama:



I too oppose Nike and Tommy Hilfiger's use of child labor (much of which occurs in Red China) and I don't purchase their goods.

Regarding McDonald's, they've been taking steps to correct some of their meat-buying procedures. And regarding Coca-Cola, I am not sure if opposing unionization is "repressing" people, but I'll look into it. Do me a favor an look into Sudan. Thanks.

~U2Alabama

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Old 10-16-2001, 09:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
Do me a favor an look into Sudan.

If we could only realise what the US have actually done to Sudan...
http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/aug98/18_08_064.html




------------------

Got to walk out of here, I can't take anymore
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Whatever may come and whatever may go
that river's flowing


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Old 10-16-2001, 10:45 AM   #13
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There is but one muppet!
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Old 10-16-2001, 01:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth:
There is but one muppet!
Who? Enlighten us, please.

------------------

Got to walk out of here, I can't take anymore
Gonna stand on that bridge, keep my eyes down below
Whatever may come and whatever may go
that river's flowing


"Don't Give Up", Peter Gabriel
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Old 10-16-2001, 02:44 PM   #15
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Holy John knows that Canadians are culpable all right, but darn it if it isn't more convenient to blame the United States. Over the past 50 years or so Canadians have been in the exquisitely convenient position of basking in the security and economic stimulus their relationship with the U.S. provides without ever having to deal with the real world repercussions of those conveniences. It must be nice. It would be swell if the folks I meet in Vancouver next week acknowledge that the lattes they're slurping were bought in the blood of innocents all over the world and that they are just as culpable as any American. But I doubt that will happen. That would require the sort of introspection I doubt Canadians are willing to indulge in. It's easier to blame some faceless businessman from the United States.

MAP

p.s.- My favorite Canadian moment from the past year: I stopped at a McDonalds in Vancouver to ask for directions and overheard two Tommy Hilfiger clad teens munching on Big Mac meals bitching about American consumerism. Aye Carumba!

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