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Old 10-19-2001, 07:47 PM   #31
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honestly angela harlem, i think people that are against war are actually nuts because there are no other way to deal with this and i think i am kind of smart. You can't go in and arrest bin laden because afghanist, first off, has no justice system at all so it is basic chaos in the country and when other international police tried to go in there before the taliban slaughtered them right off. So since you can't arrest him, you must recognixe that these people are evil and an attack on civilians from forgeign people is the basic definition of war. Simple as that, evil exists in the world, you have to destroy it before it grows any more and if you don't go after them, their drive to continue what they are doing on increases as they find the usa not taking it serious so they are free to open up more ways of attacks for larger killings. they want to destroy the country, simple as that and not for some foreign policy but for the american way of life, this is evil and i can't understand sympathizing for it or saying not doing anything is the best way to go about it, bringing justice is how you gain peace, did the ones against war know that or are they still looking at pretty pictures?


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Old 10-19-2001, 08:11 PM   #32
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Its sad to see of many try to debate Holy John, arguments with sarcasm, maybe some are only afected by listening something diferent of what you read on american text books, or watch on CNN, if USA thinks that bombing a debasted country will help "democracy and freedom" I think they will make the same mistake over and over, I wonder, who supported in the beggining Taliban? now Taliban is the devil.
To protect "freedom and democracy" USA has some powerfull allys, Arab, wich until I last checked has nothing to do with those values, and, I just hope, really hope that in some years Pakistan de facto president Musharaf will not become the NEW devil, as long as I know Pakistan isn't a democratic country, so much for the values, why not say the truth?, what is important? values or interests? or revenge?.
Have some of you read about the oilduct that was supposed to cross afghanistan? did you know that the USA company that wanted to build it was defeated by an argentinan company?
Blaming Holy Joe for the unsensitivness of the Canadian companies is also low, its obvious he don't agree, and in the same way I expect some of you to critice my countrie, maybe is the way of you to argue, what I want to make clear is that I have a great deal of respect of most americans I know including Bama and rougeroom, so this is not to call American people dumb, its a real worry that if USA government don't do things right more people, and not just americans can suffer.
People around the world don't like what the USA, "the mistakes", of course we all hate the people responsible for the attacks to NY, and Washington, but, the only thing USA is doing, and USA should be worried is that anti USA feeling is growing, that sooner or later will make more Bin Ladens, and people that will commit more nonsense attacks against USA or occidental targets.
USA thinks the terrorist attacks are for envy, or something like that, by a dark side... this is no cowboys film, USA should know that if they take sides in the palestinan-israel problem they are actually getting exposed, I hope that now that it seems USA has realized that this problem has to be resolved , have the will to make the israel government to compromise to a solution.
*waiting to get flamed*

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Old 10-19-2001, 11:03 PM   #33
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Get your story straight. The USA has NEVER supported the Taliban. The Taliban wasn't even around when the US helped the rebels take Afghanistan from the Russians.
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Old 10-20-2001, 06:18 AM   #34
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It is still quite amazing to see how the world hasn't changed much in its perspectives since the 11th, and what I mean by that is NOT the fundamental that America is all arrogant and that the Middle East is over-run by corrupt governements (for neither statements are true), but that there is simply no point in pointing fingers.

Holy John, I can appreciate the sentiment that you wish to present ANOTHER side of it all, which is sometimes overlooked, however, unleashing an attack on America and its values is not the way to go about it. Mainly because, and I'm sure you've all noticed, when someone raises one criticism and issue, another intricately woven dichotomy is presented, which equals another. And another. That is, of course, the point of debate, however, when it comes to a topic such as politics (and other harsher emotions beneath the surface... such as nationalism and pride) it is difficult to make a point without sounding a)rascist, b)cynical or c)judgemental.

The truth is, people who go the extremes (ie - America is all bad, everyone in Afghanistan should pay for the lives lost on the 11th) are ignoring the nature of the sitaution that we're in. It is not a black and white issue.

Holy John is not justified in accusing America of all the modern evils of capitalism and greed anymore than a patriotic American is in thinking that America is free of sin and is purely the victim. What a conundrum we're all in, we're asked to choose sides in a war where the sides are not so black and white, there are millions of shades of grey and distinctions we have to make as open-minded and intelligent human beings. Whatever your consideration or thoughts are, let it reflect the kaleidescope of judgements and sides your mind has balanced out. Frankly, people like Holy John (who, although contain some very valid arguemnts) have not thought it out.

Having said that, I am for the 'war', if you can call it that. My reasons are as follows;

a) The problem with Jesus' wonderfully erudite statement; 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone', is that not everyone can be as humble as to realising that. Jesus was an exceptionally cool meister of logic, however, he expected too much of people in his day and age, as well as this one.

Presidents and world-leaders are elected to protect their countries and their interests, not to let self-righteous neanderthals throw stones at the innocents. Therefore, the modern world does not seek refuge in Jesus' doctrine, but seeks a more rapid logical solution; hence the need for war. I have never been America's number one fan, however, I have never been ANYONE's number one fan, what a thing to say! To say that the one country is free of sin is as hypoctrical as a preacher in a brothel. I have issues and criticisms with every single country, but you have to maintain focus of what IS the issue and what IS at stake. I am sorry, though America in many respects towards its foreign policy is arrogant, the issue is NOT how arrogance has ingratiated itself along with the world's leading economy. Neither is it the issue of past evils from America, who (and I repeat, those who think that America indirectly or directly supported the Taliban in the past are sorely mistaken, you may care to review your facts further and notice how they funded some military aid for short-run terms, and even then it wasn't The Taliban, get your facts straight, it was the Muhajideen)HAVE committed evils, intentionally or unwittingly, these are NOT the issues at hand.

You have to be brutal and face the cold hard fact; no one, not even the people of Afghanistan, are safe from such a callous regime as the Taliban. And they are callous, there is no other way of describing it. The essence of such an operative clause is the immediate implication that something must be done, they must be deposed of power. It doesn't matter if its an 'infringement of national sovereignty', who ever gave two shits back in the world wars about that?
Therefore, something must be done. Oh, whats that? I hear the words 'diplomacy'. I am very sorry if you think that there is such a thing in the world, surely everyone by now must realise that diplomacy is the politician's langauge for orders such as 'kill', 'destroy', 'eliminate', 'weaken' and sometimes on a good day 'protect'. There is no such thing as diplomacy, if you think it exists to avoid war, it is there to make war all that more acceptable.
Shall we reason with them? Right, lets talk to them and reason with them; this view, for reasons already discussed, is highly unlikely.

b)Apart from the fact that the Taliban should be deposed, I do think that the West concentrating its powers on Afghanistan COULD be a good thing. My firm beleifs has always been that the West has always abandoned the middle east when it needed it the most. It turned its back on it. I sincerely hope that power is given to the Northern Alliance and that their regime restores some freedom to the poor country. There are very VERY few countries who suffer more than Afghanistan.

Holy John, the issue is NOT that America is arrogant (along with the rest of the Western world). The issue is NOT that America has committed some horrors (I repeat, along with the rest of the Western world), the issue if whether we want to get rid of another regime that is crippling for the whole world. I do think that America owes it to Afghanistan, not only in its deposition of Al-Qaeeda and The Taliban, but in the sense that they should be there in Afghanistan's time of great need; after the war.
Fine, I agree that you should bomb and hunt down, kill and destroy everything that is non-beneficial to society, but you should be there after the worst is over and help reconstruct their country. As long as America, and its over-enthusiastic allies, are there to pick up the pieces (and the tab), I'm all for it. I am not for America bombing a country and leaving to starve in the end.

These are my thoughts as I have sought them out in this plane of various shades of grey, and it has taken me a while, I must confess. I have always struggled with my faith as a Catholic, hence I abandoned it all and searched for my own faith, accepted what my mind could accept. Its not much but I always thought that better than ahving blind faith. You HAVE to have that with politics, and with anything else for that matter. You can't scream for America's downfall because you have some grudges against it, you can't be prejeduiced against the entirety of the Middle East, or even Afganistan, because of a few peices of human scum ruining it all; you have to look deeper and appreciate just how complicated it really is.

Its too complicated for an argument based on hating everything America ever stood for.

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Old 10-20-2001, 07:57 AM   #35
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Rouge, the main reason why I do not suport war is becasue you now have thousands of servicemen and women endagering their lives because of this one particular group of emotionless blood thirsty freaks. I feel great sadness that normally peaceful hardworking ordinary people now have to risk their lives (I know its their choice) because of the Taliban. Its sad enough that your country was attacked and now it seems you may lose more because of them. And this isnt a criticism. Im trying to be as open minded as possible. America is doing the only thing it can do in respose. And that is to fight back. I know that they have no choice, there is little else they can do which will be effective, but I still dont like it.

In this case rouge, Im not liking the irony. America is a peaceful country. You dont attack without provocation, you dont make your point violently. You are advanced thinkers. Yet as a result of others, you have more risk to yourselves and have to fight for what you have earned. I think it stinks. I dont care for the Taliban. I dont care if you blow the shit out of them anymore. I am not a sympathiser because I hate war. I am not anti American. I just dont like that the human race has failed itself again.

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