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Old 05-12-2002, 11:43 PM   #16
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Yes its always been a fair fight in the middle east with the Israel's and Arabs. 1948, invasion by 5 Arab countries including attacks by Palestinians. Population of Jews at the time was only 600,000. Still Israel faced its difficult odds, survived and yes in the process united the three Israely sectors by land. They were seperated when they accepted the UN play which the Palestinians rejected because they wanted to destroy the Jews.

The fact is that Israel has been outnumbered and faced incredible odds to achieve victory and prevent its destruction in four wars. There would be no such thing as the Occupied Territories if the Arabs had accepted the UN plan in 1947, or had not invaded Israel in 1948, attempted to invade in 1956 and 1967 and of course 1973.

The occupation continues for two reasons, legitmate security concerns in regards to possible invasions from Arab countries, a common occurance in the past. Israel's rather thin land distribution and lack of high ground naturally make it militarily very vulnerable to attack and being cut in half or overrun given the number of potential enemies in the region. #2 of course is the inability of Palestinian security and government to prevent terrorist attacks on Israel. If they fail to prevent and actually aid and support it, the IDF has the right to move in and destory the terrorist themselves.

The fact is this, Israel has a state. If the Palestinians want one they need to adopt strategies that actually have a chance producing their desired goal. The strategy of the terrorist is pathetic and just makes things worse for Palestinians. It is impossible for the Palestinians themselves to defeat the IDF. The United States is not going to stop sending Israel 3 billion in funds a year and most likely will increase it. The Palestinians need to adopt non-violent methods to achieve their goals. They need to devolop a government and a true democracy with a constitution and laws that forbid terrorism and other acts of violence. These things can happen now and begin to devolop even if there are some IDF soldiers in the West Bank. IDF soldiers are deployed away from cities or near Jewish settlements. This is not occupation in the true sense of the word. If large numbers of IDF troops were there under what a real occupation would look like, there would be no need for military incursions from Israel or the movement of troops from Israel to the West Bank itself. GAZA is supposedly occupied, but there are no regular Israely forces stationed inside GAZA currently(correct me if I'm wrong). Developing non-violent and peaceful strategies, and preventing Palestinians from becoming terrorist, and changing the culture of terror among the people is the only way Palestinians will be able to achieve their state. 35 or 50 years of violence has only made Palestinians situation worse. Palestinians need a new strategy that does not involve terror.

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Old 05-13-2002, 12:06 AM   #17
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Regardless of who is right or wrong, it is a sad, depressing situation that is taking place there now. I feel for all of them. War is a very, very ugly business.

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Old 05-13-2002, 02:41 AM   #18
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Originally posted by lady lemonade:
I would have agreed with you if these were innocent civilians. But I think the fact that they are murderers is crucial to the argument.
"Innocent until proven guilty." Of course, I forget that is the theoretical American model. The Israeli one seems to be "an eye for an eye."

I don't think that the purpose of the Church when it was built was to provide a refuge for cold-blood killers.
Well, Jesus did associate with prostitutes, lepers, Samaritans...

Love your ennemi? Maybe, but excuse me if I tend to hold a grudge against Osama Bin Laden.
If Osama, for instance, had holed himself up in the Church of Nativity, I'd have expected the Church to do the same as it had done. Of course, I would also have expected his immediate arrest and prosecution afterwards.

Anyway, if Israel had wanted them all dead they could have stormed the Church but they chose to exercise restraint and respect for the sanctity of holy sites, something that Palestinians have failed to show in the past. For instance, consider the destruction of Tomb of Joseph which was destroyed after the Palestinain Authority had assured the Israeli army that they would preserve it intact.
It is questionable as to whether that is even the Tomb of Joseph. It is theorized to actually be the tomb of an Islamic military leader dated from the Crusades-era.

Besides, my argument is not on holy sites. If Israel had destroyed the Church of the Nativity, I'd be happy knowing it went down in defense of the faith, rather than rotting there as a monument to tradition.

Hopefully, those responsible for acts of terrorism will be prosecuted and incarcerated.
I certainly agree with this. I hope so as well, after thorough investigation. The problem with this is that Israel has this habit of labelling everyone as "terrorists."


"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy
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Old 05-13-2002, 02:45 AM   #19
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Originally posted by gabrielvox:
Actually the biggest thing I noticed about all of your comments on this topic is just how incredibly naive and one-sided they were.

Well what do you expect when you write a one sentence reply like:
And the Oxymoron of The Year award goes to the phrase: "innocent Israeli".

How am I supposed to assume that you are talking about a specific kind of Israelis who, in your opinion, is not innocent. I naively thought that an oxymoron is "a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms are combined to produce an epigrammatic effect." In this case, it would mean that you cannot be an innocent and an Isaeli, that it is impossible to be an innocent Israeli. Pardon my ignorance of your own definition of oxymoron. How naive of me to think that you were using the widely-accepted definition of the term...

Next time, try to avoid making generalizations and chose your words more carefully. My comments that you found exaggerated and ridiculous were chosen to poke fun at your own hurtful and badly-phrased comment. It's called sarcasm. For the record, I don't actually think that the Holocaust or that that comment that you found over-the-top (although it was actually stated by Arafat in one of his angry speeches in Arabic, the ones you never see in our biased media) are relevant to this issue. However, I do find it questionable that you put "innocent Israeli" between quotation marks but you have no problem labeling innnocent Palestinian. The protesters among the Israelis are often seen at check-points and you might have heard of the 500 soldiers who refused to serve in the occupied territories. Now I seem to have missed the massive Palestinian demonstrations denouncing suicide-bombings. My bad. I'm probably too naive and brain-washed by the media... You on the other hand does not seem judgemental or one sided at all

Watch more tv.

[This message has been edited by lady lemonade (edited 05-12-2002).]
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Old 05-13-2002, 09:46 AM   #20
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Originally posted by lady lemonade:
Okay, guess that sums it up. I won't bother quoting from your reply which is basically constituted of a bunch of personal jabs and poorly-veiled hateful comments. However, about your statement concerning the Israeli refuseniks, which you seem to have solely based on that one article you read in Maclean's, here's something else for you to read:,00.html
Oh, and just so you know, that watch more tv comment was directed at you as you seem to have been brainwashed into making one-sided and judgemental assumptions. I don't have cable, I have studied political science and I read a lot. Thank you for your concern though
Damn, no smilie for 'yawn'..

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Old 05-13-2002, 04:16 PM   #21
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Originally posted by gabrielvox:
And the Oxymoron of The Year award goes to the phrase: "innocent Israeli".


Yes there is such a thing as an innocent Israeli. People, teenagers, who go out to have fun in a club and get killed because of a suicide bomber ARE innocent. People who go out to a club to play some pool, and get murdered by a suicide bomber - which happened in my city - ARE innocent!

I find your comment very offending, as an INNOCENT Israeli.
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Old 05-13-2002, 06:32 PM   #22
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BTW, lady lemonade, could you please e-mail me at

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