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Old 12-05-2004, 01:03 PM   #16
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Originally posted by ludwig72
I dunno if I fully agree with Stars.s viewpoint. All humans are imperfect and will naturally lean towards what is wrong. We have to train ourselves on a daily basis to lean towards the right way.

True we all have consciences, but we can either feed it good or corrupt things. We have to train or heart/conscience to do what is right. My 1.5 worth of cents.

Well my question to you would be if you accept what you are saying...then where do you get your concept of "right way" and "what is wrong".

If you telling someone that they are "wrong" or "right", you are appealing to same kind of standard of behavior which you expect that person to know about. When telling someone that they are right or wrong..they will nearly always try to make out that what has been done does not really go against the standard...they don't act as no standard exists, they just try to mold it so it would appear that it wasn't breached.

Now a person is always free to disobey this sense if they want. But if they do so to an extreme the individual will be removed from society, ie. criminals.

Perhaps you might say that several different civiliazations have different mores and morality. True, to an extent....mores and not morality differ. Name a single country where it is considered honarable to run away in battle, for example, or where double crossing everyone and everything is acceptable....it's inconcievable. Morality is congruent across the board. Mores, can have differences but still have the same basic concept. For example Americans may differ with Africans on the amount of wives one may have...but there is still the basic underlying principle that you may not simply have any woman you like.

So my point is...there is an innate sense of have we all, as humans, ought to behave. And secondly, just because that sense is there doesn't mean we keep it--I break it all the time. I can recall times where I have been less than kind to a person, or excuses I made to justify an action or something as 'minor' as that....but I KNEW I was doing something wrong. And that's where I agree with you...the law of human nature is there but it is one that isn't always kept...but it's still there.
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Old 12-05-2004, 02:37 PM   #17
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Well my question to you would be if you accept what you are saying...then where do you get your concept of "right way" and "what is wrong".

Personally, the bible.

If you telling someone that they are "wrong" or "right", you are appealing to same kind of standard of behavior which you expect that person to know about.

Yuppers, any rational person can or should not make someone accountable if they are unaware of the facts.

When telling someone that they are right or wrong..they will nearly always try to make out that what has been done does not really go against the standard...they don't act as no standard exists, they just try to mold it so it would appear that it wasn't breached.

Yuppers, human nature. Sometimes compromise is a dirty word.

Now a person is always free to disobey this sense if they want. But if they do so to an extreme the individual will be removed from society, ie. criminals.

Perhaps you might say that several different civiliazations have different mores and morality. True, to an extent....mores and not morality differ. Name a single country where it is considered honarable to run away in battle, for example, or where double crossing everyone and everything is acceptable....it's inconcievable. Morality is congruent across the board. Mores, can have differences but still have the same basic concept. For example Americans may differ with Africans on the amount of wives one may have...but there is still the basic underlying principle that you may not simply have any woman you like.

Good point about morality. It is always in flux. I was thinking more on the lines of principles. They tend to never change with the tide of society or popular opinion.

So my point is...there is an innate sense of have we all, as humans, ought to behave. And secondly, just because that sense is there doesn't mean we keep it--I break it all the time. I can recall times where I have been less than kind to a person, or excuses I made to justify an action or something as 'minor' as that....but I KNEW I was doing something wrong. And that's where I agree with you...the law of human nature is there but it is one that isn't always kept...but it's still there. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with your viewpoint about human nature. So stands the question: why do some actually care about doing something wrong and try to do a better job of improving (not talking about perfection, either), whereas some don't care at all?
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Old 12-05-2004, 02:38 PM   #18
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Ratz, I couldn't figure out how to include your original comments in the highlighted form. Sorry.
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Old 12-05-2004, 04:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by ludwig72

I agree with your viewpoint about human nature. So stands the question: why do some actually care about doing something wrong and try to do a better job of improving (not talking about perfection, either), whereas some don't care at all?

That's a good question. Some may do so only to avoid negative consequenses....but I think most do because they know in thier gut it is the thing to do.

Now the ones who don't care at all... there could be alot of reasons.
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Old 12-05-2004, 05:59 PM   #20
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We all have some amount of apathy, but we all have a conscience as well.
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Old 12-05-2004, 06:15 PM   #21
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If you can think for yourself and consider your actions you are morally responsible for whatever you do.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:59 AM   #22
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hmm, interesting responses....
it is also noted that some did not understand the argument.
My actions and choices are a result of who I am. If I am to be open to blame/punishment or praise for my actions and choices, then I have to be responsible for who I am. It seems difficult to believe that you can cause yourself. No one chooses their genetic make-up; no one chooses their family or environment. Who you are is a result of your genetic make-up and environment (nature and nurture). You do not determine who you are - it's determined for you, so to speak.
So what if you can think, you did not choose to think.
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Old 12-06-2004, 02:00 AM   #23
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by the by, i do not hold this view. nevertheless, it is a major philosophical question that cannot be easily explained away.
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Old 12-06-2004, 02:13 AM   #24
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I think that it (or one argument for) it can be justified, our thoughts and emotions are biological in nature, nothing more and nothing less. We as organisms are conditioned from birth by our environments but we as indiduals ultimately have the power to make choices. The power of choice is where the question of morality is put in place ergo somebody forced into performing an evil deed is not responsiblle for the act however somebody who performs it by their own volition - regardless of their upbringing or society, in general - is. I am unapologetic in my belief that all people regardless of sex, age, race, religion or sexual preference should be allowed to live their lives freely bar infringing on the freedom of others and I think that most people will lead perfectly normal lives in the ideal environment which does not seem to exist. The fact that the world is not a total dystopia should stand as an example of this.
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Old 12-06-2004, 02:21 AM   #25
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ahh, choice...but do we really have it? I mean we all certainly feel like we have choice, but is it an illusion?
Consider: if what we do is a result of who we are, and we did not choose who we are, then we do not choose what we do.
Perhaps another slam at choice is to say, look we live in a determinist world. The laws of physics and history determine the course for the future. What you are going to write in response is what you are going to write. You can try to say, no I will not write what I'm supposed to write, I will mispell a word! But, you were always going to mispell the word, you only did what you were going to do. The same can be said of our moral choices and actions.
(again, just so no one hates me, this is not the position i take...i just don't want to post my position yet)
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Old 12-06-2004, 02:34 AM   #26
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However the universe does not run like clockwork and the question of determinsim is pushed when considering physical problems like the three body problem. We have choice, I could right now pick up a big knife and slash my wrists - I will not because my mechanisms of self preservation would be acting against that. If one was to hypothetically kill another person deliberately, without cause, then that would be ones own fault and they alone would be responsible. Choice is not some vague illusion, it is something that we live with every day and underpins our actions. Right now I am choosing to post on this forum and write this post, this does not by definition mean that I am forced to by events past. The concept of determinism within the universe is tied up not only with that of free will, but the importance of events. To say that everything is destined to happen because of what has gone before is no different than proposing that God's will controls it all. Removing that element and looking at the world as a chaotic system with loads of random events will make so many things seem unimportant.
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Old 12-06-2004, 02:47 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
However the universe does not run like clockwork and the question of determinsim is pushed when considering physical problems like the three body problem. We have choice, I could right now pick up a big knife and slash my wrists - I will not because my mechanisms of self preservation would be acting against that. If one was to hypothetically kill another person deliberately, without cause, then that would be ones own fault and they alone would be responsible. Choice is not some vague illusion, it is something that we live with every day and underpins our actions. Right now I am choosing to post on this forum and write this post, this does not by definition mean that I am forced to by events past. The concept of determinism within the universe is tied up not only with that of free will, but the importance of events. To say that everything is destined to happen because of what has gone before is no different than proposing that God's will controls it all. Removing that element and looking at the world as a chaotic system with loads of random events will make so many things seem unimportant.
I had this long reply but I am just going to quote this and say I totally agree
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:13 AM   #28
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Normal

Quote:
Originally posted by starsgoblue
I think everyone, universally, has an innate sense of right and wrong. It's part of what makes us human....
If that were true, why is there so much bad and wrong in the world?

I believe that the problem is some people have no conscience, or a twisted version of one to justify the things they want to do anyway and not feel guilty. So if you leave 'right' and 'wrong' up to every single person's individual opinion, anything can happen, and it does. Look at the mess the world is in and you'll see this is sad but true.
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:24 AM   #29
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It's one thing to know what is right and wrong, it is quite another to live by it. One of the excuses for evil deeds in this day and age such as genocides is that they are perpetrated in the real heart of darkness areas of the globe and that those that do don't know any better, it doesn't occur to people that morality is somewhat flexible in situations where it is needed to be - we can see that in those few who engineered and carried out the holocaust who were in many cases well educated and cultured individuals comitting the most brutal deeds for want of racial purity. I am not defending their actions in any way shape or form but I am saying that from the heart of the Reich down to the SS men running the camps they must have established their own demented moral logic to justify their actions.
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Old 12-06-2004, 05:31 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
their own demented moral logic to justify their actions.
That's it, it happens all the time

Then you have those have a very strange idea of 'right.'What about terrorists who honestly believe they are not only good but justified and glorified in killing thousands of innocent people on purpose?
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