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Old 05-23-2004, 05:16 AM   #31
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Originally posted by speedracer

I think it does, because I think that you fundamentally misunderstand what Christianity is.
After being brought up in a Christian home and studying it for 4 years at university, I reckon I have a fairly decent grasp of the subject.


I can reply to this last statement in one of two ways:

1. If "moral" means "morally perfect", then people aren't moral with Christ, either (at least not in this earthly life).

2. If "moral" means "capable of doing morally good things", then yes, it is true that people aren't moral without Christ. When you do any good thing, it is Christ working in your heart that enables you to do it, whether or not you recognize him.
I think we can both agree on the first statement. No "moral" does not mean morally perfect, only the faculties to recognize right from wrong.

Your second point is rather convenient for Christianity. All those Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists and Atheists who act morally according to "Christian" values are actually being enabled by Christ, despite what they believe. Are these people saved then? Is salvation universal?

If you step back and look at this, what you have is Christ as sappy new age metaphor for all the goodness people possess. May I also add that the humanity of Christ has also been completely exorcised in this view of him.


But that last statement isn't the point that Lewis was trying to make. The point he was trying to make was that if the "good life" is your final goal, then you're basically spending your life chasing your tail, whether or not you're a Christian. Whatever your successes are, they'll always be outweighed by your failures.

By "good life" you mean morally "good" or persuing "health and wealth?"
Either way, this is a pessimistic statement which I don't agree with. Speak for yourself.


You said in a previous post that Christianity is one of a number of self-help programs that help people feel happier and more successful. Fine, the teachings of Christ and the Bible have helped me become a more moral person, but still I continue to fall and stumble, and I'll continue to do so until the day I die. Time and again I come back to the fundamental truth of Christianity -- that I am a fundamentally sinful and broken being, but Jesus loves me and thought that I was worth redeeming. So much so, in fact, that he died so that I could be made whole again.
Nope. I do not believe the entire religion is this way. I said the for some/many Christians, their religion is nothing more than a self help program, a way to be happier and more successful. There is also escapist focus on the after-life so the self-help aspect is not really ackowledged.


Of course it's important to do good -- to be merciful, to seek justice for the oppressed, to be honest and upright. Jesus himself speaks about the importance of feeding the hungry and healing the sick in Matthew 25. But our constant moral struggles during this earthly life are just the first step towards our ultimate destiny: an eternity in heaven, made anew, free from the bondage of sin, in the presence of God forever.
This is an excellent example. Again, the humanity of Christ is completely subordinated to the idea of him as a theological premise. In the same line, "this" world is de-valued in favour of the "next." It is a destructive dualism between flesh and spirit that is ultimately escapist.

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Old 05-23-2004, 06:01 AM   #32
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grace, it's a name for a girl, it's also a thought that changed the world....

as it was said before, the teachings are the important part of this debate.

also, what is faith? Faith is believing even when you have absolutely no reason to continue to do so. The fact that millions of people have faith in a person that some science is trying to say never existed is a pretty powerful thing and no matter if you agree with it or not you cannot deny how amazing that is.

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Old 05-23-2004, 12:45 PM   #33
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Originally posted by iacrobat
After being brought up in a Christian home and studying it for 4 years at university, I reckon I have a fairly decent grasp of the subject.
There are people who go to Christian schools or attend church every week and do not know what Christianity is.
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Old 05-23-2004, 01:21 PM   #34
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This is so predictable.

Mmmm....no, since I disagree, I mustn't really understand.
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Old 05-24-2004, 02:06 AM   #35
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Originally posted by AcrobatMan
I am not sure why people are so concerned about things that is 2000 yrs old.
Well, the U.S. constitution is over 200 years old, yet people are still very much concerned about it. It plays a significant role in the way the U.S. government is run, laws, regulations, etc.

The Bible has made significant influences on "Western" cultures, some of the ways court systems work, convicting people of crimes, etc. Christianity was a major religion in Europe, so many of the influences, are still there, and those also spread to other parts of the world. Perhaps it's probably just so ingrained, that many people no longer realise some of the things they say, do, conduct business, laws, are biblically based. So much has been said negatively of Judaism, Christianity, the Bible, that the positive things, have been overlooked.

Influence of Christianity on Civil Legislation

My $.02
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Old 05-24-2004, 02:33 AM   #36
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Originally posted by STING2
The way or methods used to discredit that Jesus existed could also be used to discredit the existence of other things from 2000 years ago. Dr. Albert Schweitzer seems to simply be interested in attacking and discrediting other peoples religion.
I agree

“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
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