"No Hablo Espanol and NEVER WILL!" - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-17-2005, 12:24 AM   #76
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 03:20 PM
I think everyone in the U.S. should be forced to learn English.

On the other hand, most first-generation immigrants never successfully integrate into society. Some of the people I went to HS had grandparents who were first-generation immigrants and none of them spoke more than a few words of English. By the third generation, however, we have kids who are fully bilingual, and, more importantly, know English perfectly.

I think we generally need to keep things in perspective. Anti-immigrant rants are an American past-time that's about as old as America itself; and in every and all instances, the sky doesn't fall and America gets better. Future generations assimilate, while carrying on their cultural traditions. After all, the Irish-Italian Boston is nothing like the "Boston" of 150 years ago. But you know what? You can't stop change.

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
Old 05-17-2005, 03:18 AM   #77
War Child
 
Miggy D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Davis, California
Posts: 974
Local Time: 12:20 PM
I think a person's decision whether or not to learn a foreign language is their decision alone. I don't think the French should be forced to learn English in school and neither do I think that a person should be forced to learn Spanish if they don't want to. In my opinion, the burden is on the immigrant, not the native. If I were to go to France and demand everyone learn English so that I could communicate I would be written off as an arrogant, ignorant American. Yet there seems to be a prevailing line of thought within the liberal American community that says immigrants (especially those beneath our southern borders) shouldn't be required to learn English if they don't want to, and that the state should accomodate this unwillingness to adapt.

This is hogwash, I say. Hogwash!

Learning a new language is hard, and I believe there should be state-funded language classes for new immigrants from all countries, especially the Latin ones (since so many immigrate from these places). We should make it easier for immigrants to learn English so that they may better integrate into American society.

-Miggy
__________________

__________________
Miggy D is offline  
Old 05-17-2005, 06:25 AM   #78
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 08:20 PM
I'm a linguistic klutz. I studied French in school but wasn't good at it. I'm just glad my first, and only language, is the language I need.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 05-17-2005, 07:04 AM   #79
War Child
 
NYRangers78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: THE BRONX NEW YORK GOD BLESS AMERICA
Posts: 540
Local Time: 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's shades


Don't you have it backwards? Isn't it more the employer's fault for exploiting people who are willing to work for less simply because as low as the wages are, they are still better than what they were making back in their home country?

sure a lot of it is the employer, but thats only because they know they can get mexicans/ illegal immigrants on the cheap. so it is partly the employer, and partly the mexicans/illegal immigrants. now if there was some way that mexicans/illegal immigrants could stand together and demand more money, they wouldnt be treated the way they are. but they cant because they are illegal and arent entitled to rights that american citizens have. i have the utmost respect for mexicans. they work very hard and get treated like dirt but for the most part, respect america and love being here.
__________________
NYRangers78 is offline  
Old 05-17-2005, 10:43 AM   #80
Acrobat
 
MandyMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Under a Carolina blue sky
Posts: 355
Local Time: 04:20 PM
Down here a good percentage of the migrant workers don't live so bad. They work in the fields or the hog/chicken/turkey houses, and in turn they get paid, + rent-free/nearly rent-free housing, free electric, free medical insurance, and food stamps.

I'm not complaining, because they are doing the shitty work that nobody else wants to do, I just think it's fair to ask them to learn the national language. I wouldn't move to another country and expect everyone to cater to me and my own language, it's common sense and courtesy to learn the national language. MO anyways.
__________________
MandyMarie is offline  
Old 05-17-2005, 10:52 AM   #81
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MandyMarie
I'm not complaining, because they are doing the shitty work that nobody else wants to do, I just think it's fair to ask them to learn the national language. I wouldn't move to another country and expect everyone to cater to me and my own language, it's common sense and courtesy to learn the national language. MO anyways.
Again, first generation immigrants rarely have a good grasp of English. In the late 19th-early 20th century, America bitched about all the "trash" that came from Europe that didn't know English.

Rather than glaringly looking at first generation Mexican immigrants, look at the Mexican immigrants that have been here for a generation or two. Their children, inevitably, are very American, even if their parents or grandparents aren't.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 05-17-2005, 12:24 PM   #82
Acrobat
 
Bonofire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 310
Local Time: 08:20 PM
I was under the impression that speaking and reading English was a requirement for US citizenship?
__________________
Bonofire is offline  
Old 05-18-2005, 12:03 PM   #83
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 12:20 PM
Quote:
Spanish political ads kick off Bloomberg TV campaign

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Republican Mayor Michael Bloomberg is targeting Latino voters with the first television advertisements of his re-election campaign, which feature him speaking entirely in Spanish.

The ads unveiled Tuesday begin a bilingual blitz expected to continue for several days, highlighting themes like the city's reviving economy, safe streets and better schools. Ads in English are scheduled for later this week.

The two Spanish spots, 30 and 60 seconds long, show uplifting city scenes like children on playgrounds and construction workers mixed with urban images of skyscrapers and police officers with handcuffs. Bloomberg, who has a Spanish tutor, trades lines with the female voiceover.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 05-18-2005, 01:41 PM   #84
Refugee
 
WinnieThePoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 2,232
Local Time: 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Bonofire
I was under the impression that speaking and reading English was a requirement for US citizenship?
yes , except elders ( late refugees etc )
__________________
WinnieThePoo is offline  
Old 05-18-2005, 08:03 PM   #85
War Child
 
Seabird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: with 2 kids in high school they tell her that she's uncool, but she's still preoccupied with 1985
Posts: 906
Local Time: 03:20 PM
So if speaking English is a prerequisite for citizenship, and you have to be a citizen to vote, why run ads in Spanish? Did they cheat on their test and not really learn English? I have always thought that putting things in Spanish did not help the immigrants because it discourages them from bothering to learn English. That is not helpful in the long run to them or anyone else.
__________________
Seabird is offline  
Old 05-18-2005, 08:10 PM   #86
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,276
Local Time: 03:20 PM
Well, what is the citizenship test like?

In Canada, you get a booklet with all the facts and then it's multiple choice, so anybody can memorize names and dates and not really have a working grasp of the language.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 05-18-2005, 11:01 PM   #87
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
elevation2u's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: corner of Badlands & Magnolia Mountain
Posts: 5,371
Local Time: 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Seabird
So if speaking English is a prerequisite for citizenship, and you have to be a citizen to vote, why run ads in Spanish? Did they cheat on their test and not really learn English? I have always thought that putting things in Spanish did not help the immigrants because it discourages them from bothering to learn English. That is not helpful in the long run to them or anyone else.
there is more to life than conforming to the language of the country, these people are trying to make an honest living to support their family and give their children a better life while at the same time maintaining their culture, which is not as easy as it appears to be. for the most parts the adults only learn enough english to get by...
and what exactly is wrong with that? what may seem helpful to someone else ..such as learning english... isnt the most helpful thing for another, they have more things to worry about in their household.. such as trying to have communication with their kids who sometimes become too americanized and in that process become distanced from their parents. ive seen it happen many times, kids pick up on the mentality of looking down at their parents for not speaking good english and for being so tied to their culture because the rest of society makes comments without noticing how hurtful they truly are to others.
__________________
elevation2u is offline  
Old 05-19-2005, 02:16 AM   #88
Acrobat
 
echo0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: WV-USA
Posts: 349
Local Time: 03:20 PM
Random thoughts and comments after reading this thread:

Historic Amercian Signs Once Seen in US Business Establishments:
No Irish Need Apply
No Dogs or Indians Allowed
Whites Only

As a percentage of any population, people who are truly fluent in more than one language are rare.

It is very difficult for the average person to become fluent in a second language as an adult.

Many people try for years to acquire a second language, and never attain any real facility with that second langauge.

We've probably all heard of people who speak six languages, but most of us don't have that kind of lingual talent. You can't expect all immigrants to automatically develop a knack for languages that most people just don't have.

Instead of expecting the immigrants to suddenly become lingual geniuses, why don't you expect yourself to become one when you encounter an immigrant?

It's true that many first generation immigrants do not "assimilate" (what a buttsucking concept that is). One of the basic causes of that fact is that (repeating myself here) it is not easy to become fluent in a second language as an adult.

This is THE Melting Pot, right? Aren't most Americans proud of the fact? Then why do so many Americans have a major bug up their ass about this? My guess is that the immigrant's inability to speak accomplished English inconviences the poor, long suffering American.

Yeah, it's probably a good idea to make an attempt to learn the most common language of the country you happen to be residing in....but not easy to become fluent (see above.) Ever take five seconds to consider the frustration of a 40 yr. old Mexican immigrant who's been living in this country for 5 or 6 years, and who is an average person (IQ 100, not 150), and who has been trying all that time to learn good English, and still hasn't been able to become fluent? Standing there trying to make yourself understood by ego-stuffed American who wishes that you'd "either learn the language or go back where you came from"?

Ever take a long look at a good English Dictionary? Ever notice how many words have been absorbed from other languages? So much for the purity of English.......

Or should we all go back to speaking the Old English of Chaucer? Would that be pure enough? And if we did, where goeth pizza, burrito, deja vu, coup d' etat?

The U.S. has no official language, just as it has no official religion, official costume, or official way to lace your sneakers. I hope it stays that way.

And I hope that America will eventually learn from it's past, and Americans will stop perpetrating the kind of behavior our grandchildren will get to be ashamed of when they read about it in the history books.

End of rant.
For now.
__________________
echo0001 is offline  
Old 05-19-2005, 04:45 AM   #89
War Child
 
Seabird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: with 2 kids in high school they tell her that she's uncool, but she's still preoccupied with 1985
Posts: 906
Local Time: 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by elevation2u


there is more to life than conforming to the language of the country, these people are trying to make an honest living to support their family and give their children a better life while at the same time maintaining their culture, which is not as easy as it appears to be. for the most parts the adults only learn enough english to get by...
and what exactly is wrong with that? what may seem helpful to someone else ..such as learning english... isnt the most helpful thing for another, they have more things to worry about in their household.. such as trying to have communication with their kids who sometimes become too americanized and in that process become distanced from their parents. ive seen it happen many times, kids pick up on the mentality of looking down at their parents for not speaking good english and for being so tied to their culture because the rest of society makes comments without noticing how hurtful they truly are to others.
Because it's an unecessarily hardship on society as a whole. I have been in businesses where Spanish had so taken over I couldn't get anyone to understand me. Some jobs, as some have mentioned, now require bosses to learn Spanish. You can't even get any customer service on the phone, or use an ATM, without having to deal with "Espanol" options. It wasn't like this until very recently. These immigrants, most of them illegal, have succeeded in forcing their language on the mainstream America. No other ethnic group in the history of this nation has ever asked American citizens to conform for them. Immigrants are welcome, yes, but when in Rome, do as the Romans do. If I moved to Rome, I'd have to learn Italian. If an Italian moved to Sweden, she'd learn Swedish. It's just some Hispanics who expect everyone to cave in and make everything easier for them.

This is not fair to natural born US citizens, and it's really not fair to immigrants from all other countries who do not get this special treatment. In Chinese resturants I frequent, the employees are all bilingual, even children as young as 10! They can speak to the customers in perfect English, then turn around and talk to each other in their native language. If they can do it, why can't the Hispanics?

It isn't helping the immigrants to learn English as long as we have options in Espanol. This discourages them from trying to learn English, because they don't have to. That will turn out to be a negative thing for them.

Quote:
This is THE Melting Pot, right?
Indeed it is, and what does the term "melting" mean? It refers to people from all over the world blending in and becoming one with us. That's not happening if the blending isn't happening because some insist on retaining their own language and ways. It's not right for someone to come to a country and expect to take advantage of all the benefits without its obligations.* This goes for any immigrant in any nation, not just Hispanics in the US.

*{Illegals pay no taxes either, since their crooked employer paying them a below minimum wage salary can't turn them in on his taxes or the IRS would catch him and the illegals}
__________________
Seabird is offline  
Old 05-19-2005, 05:26 AM   #90
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 07:20 AM
Perhaps a lot of English speaking countries need to stop looking at people as 'immigrants' and more as Americans or Australians or whatever is applicable. Personally, if I wanted to live in France, I'd want to try damned hard to learn the language because I'd want to fit in. There would never be any denying my Aussieness, I'd be tied to those roots until I die. But becoming a citizen of France, I'd want to be (living) French. I see people who might or might not have been born here always referred to as immigrant. All because they might be of obvious Lebanese descent, have a thick accent due to their families and a lot of their friends influencing how they pronunciate words. But many just dont consider them Australian now. And by calling them Australian now is not to write off where they came from, and their heritage and roots, but it is the acceptance that they now live here and want to be Australian. We still call them Lebs or immigrants. I dont disagree with the above posts that language needs to be learned, but I do think the problem is two-fold.

I worked in a team once with...7 people. 2 of us were the Skippys, and the other 5 ladies were Indian. They were nice ladies, my friend and I thought we all got on well with them. When talking about work, we never had language barriers as they spoke carefully and always ensured we knew what they were talking about. We thought everything was fine. One day we got an email from the manager saying "I want to do lunch with the 2 of you to discuss some things". It seemed there was a problem with communication in general. Our manager on either their behalf, or hers, had felt out team had no unity. I blurted out that one way to help this was to send us on a crash course in Hindi. She stared at me dumbfounded and I explained we actually had no problem with them, working was fine, but in general communication, they spoke only in Hindi, naturally. We'd not approach them if they were ever talking amongst themselves, while we had no clue what they were saying, we had no way of knowing if we'd be interrupting something about work or not. One of them, who we weren't too sure of how normally friendly she was, made us laugh often as she'd lower her voice if we walked past when she was on the phone. We wanted to tap her on the shoulder and remind her she could yell if she wanted - we still wouldn't understand. Anyway, the point of this is, it highlights the problem of language new arrivals in recent generations face. We let them be, and they kept to themselves in social conversation. We all erred. They and us. We didn't have a problem with it, and assumed they didn't necessarily, but none of us made attempts to break that cycle. I dont think society makes enough effort individually, but not always from racism or unwillingness.
__________________

__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com