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Old 01-09-2004, 10:25 PM   #16
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New Space Initiative is good, but now is not the time to do so.

How can Bush spend hundreds of billions for a scifi pipe dream, when he can't even afford to give a fraction for Africa's Debt/AIDS Relief as he promised?
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Old 01-10-2004, 12:58 AM   #17
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Finally some space travel happeining!!
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Old 01-10-2004, 08:10 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by theSoulfulMofo
New Space Initiative is good, but now is not the time to do so.

How can Bush spend hundreds of billions for a scifi pipe dream, when he can't even afford to give a fraction for Africa's Debt/AIDS Relief as he promised?
sounds logical to me
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Old 01-10-2004, 08:25 AM   #19
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Great. Once we're done screwing up the earth, the moon will be ready for all of us to migrate over there and fuck that up instead!
Brilliant!

/sarcasm


We don't need more teflon. What on earth is beneficial about this? Help is needed here on Earth. Lets not ruin any more of this solar system, eh?
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Old 01-10-2004, 09:43 AM   #20
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So, Iraq is not enough. Lets take the moon and make it ours,...there are a lot of natural recourses to be found on the moon.
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Old 01-10-2004, 09:51 AM   #21
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There are a lot of natural resources to be found on Earth as well. We should learn to not deplete them entirely, instead of foraging on other pristine places.
Humans cannot leave well enough alone.
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Old 01-10-2004, 09:55 AM   #22
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I hope he's discussed this with Dennis Hope, the man who OWNS the moon. http://www.lunarembassy.com/lunar/index2.lasso
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Old 01-11-2004, 07:51 PM   #23
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at first i was sooo happy to see the news about the space program. i'm the first one to say yes, we need to do more about the space program, etc. i'm involved in the local astronomy club here, and well, i just love everything related to space. i am skeptical tho.

i do not want to get my hopes up here. as much as i loathe bush this could be the one good thing he does, but sadly i just see it as another ploy to get the popularity vote to get re-elected.

bush
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Old 01-11-2004, 08:25 PM   #24
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Is no one else bothered by this???
Dennis Hope is an idiot.

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Old 01-11-2004, 08:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by meegannie
I hope he's discussed this with Dennis Hope, the man who OWNS the moon. http://www.lunarembassy.com/lunar/index2.lasso
no one can own the moon or other celestial body

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Can any State claim a part of outer space as its own?
No. The Outer Space Treaty states that outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means. The Treaty establishes the exploration and use of outer space as the "province of all mankind". The Moon Agreement expands on these provisions by stating that neither the surface nor the subsurface of the Moon (or other celestial bodies in the solar system), nor any part thereof or natural resources in place, shall become property of any State, international intergovernmental or non-governmental organization, national organization or non- governmental entity or of any natural person.
http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/FAQ/splawfaq.htm#Q6
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Old 01-12-2004, 06:37 AM   #26
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Funny how NASA was considered "wasteful spending" when Democrats were at the helm.

Regardless, I think that it is a good idea.

Melon

That's the only thing I have against Bush's idea. I see no problem with space exploration, there are many good things that could come out of that. I DO have a problem with the suspicion that Bush is using the announcement in the same way he is most likely using the "guest worker" idea of his, to get votes.
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Old 01-12-2004, 12:40 PM   #27
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I DO have a problem with the suspicion that Bush is using the announcement in the same way he is most likely using the "guest worker" idea of his, to get votes.
isnt that why everything is done by an elected politician, to get votes? cases of 'doing the right thing' are few and far between.

regardless, a decisive and concise editorial from todays
globe and mail

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How high the moon, how deep the debt

Monday, January 12, 2004 - Page A12

So here's U.S. President George W. Bush, overseeing the most dramatic escalation in U.S. state and federal indebtedness in a generation, and he's promising his country the moon -- and Mars, too. "The President is strongly committed to the exploration of space," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Friday. Could election-year politicking be the reason?

The International Monetary Fund recently took a close, hard look at the United States' finances. The IMF study, called U.S. Fiscal Policies and Priorities for Long-Run Sustainability, was released last week. The picture it paints is dire.

This year, according to most estimates, the United States will post a deficit of between $450-billion (U.S.) and $500-billion -- about 4.5 per cent of gross domestic product. That's not such a big deal, Mr. Bush's economic advisers have argued. It's nowhere near the crippling 6 per cent of GDP that U.S. deficits reached in the mid-1980s under Ronald Reagan.

There are a couple of holes in that argument, however, The first is that U.S. state finances are in even worse shape than those at the federal level. State and federal deficits combined total 6 per cent of GDP. Total U.S. government debt is now 50 per cent of GDP and climbing.

Looking a few years out, moreover, the picture darkens considerably. Mr. Bush has promised to deliver a plan in his February budget that will cut the deficit in half within five years. But even if he can deliver -- five-year economic projections are notoriously unreliable -- that still would leave the U.S. with an annual deficit of $340-billion in 2009. If we set $400-billion as an average deficit for each of the years between now and then, we're still talking about $2-trillion in new debt before 2010.

When economists talk about the dangers of deficits, they typically talk about interest rates. It's supply and demand: As the government borrows more money by issuing more bonds, demand for them naturally slackens. Investors then require a higher return on their investment, which forces interest rates higher. This in turn feeds a vicious circle in which an ever-greater portion of government spending goes toward interest payments on the debt, as opposed to program spending. Remember the early 1990s? Canadians have seen this movie before.

But in the United States the problem is even deeper than that. The U.S. government's so-called entitlement programs -- Medicare and Social Security (pensions) -- are still in surplus. But within 10 years, the IMF report suggests, those surpluses will have vanished. The baby boom will have reached peak retirement age. That's not even considering the astronomical cost of maintaining forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as a permanently alert security posture at home.

Coincidentally, a decade from now is considered a likely target date for Mr. Bush's proposed moon landing. But it won't be any old moon landing. The President reportedly envisions a permanent manned base, which would then be used to launch human exploration of Mars.

In July of 1989, on the 20th anniversary of Neil Armstrong's Giant Leap, president George Bush Sr. made his own plea for more lunar missions and a Mars landing. That idea was scrapped because of the projected cost -- about $500-billion. Current estimates put the price tag of a mission to Mars at a cool trillion.

Earth to Mr. Bush: This is lunacy.
while it says nothing of the percieved scientific and medical benefits we might expect (including those we cannot imagine), it is difficult to imagine the costs, as they are laid out in this article, being outweighed by the benefits.

though it would obviously never happen, imagine what a trillion could do for all sorts of programs of domestic and international importance.
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Old 01-18-2004, 06:06 PM   #28
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Old 01-18-2004, 06:28 PM   #29
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What per cent of shuttle flights? or experiments on them have been classified for military use? More than you think.


The defense contrators believe space is the last frontier for control, and dominance.


They will go full on nuclear for power. There is no other economical way to have a moon base.
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