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Old 04-19-2005, 04:12 PM   #121
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Oh, I can't wait for the end of the world!
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:13 PM   #122
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Originally posted by AcrobatMan
Will this Pope be SECULAR ?

Unintentionally, yes.
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:37 PM   #123
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It's so strange. Just before the announcement was made, one of my co-workers, who is also Catholic, said she didn't think it would be Ratzinger...at least she hoped. I agreed. Then the announcement came. It's not like I was expecting a great reformer or anything like that. Just...well, not this guy.
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:39 PM   #124
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It's so strange. Just before the announcement was made, one of my co-workers, who is also Catholic, said she didn't think it would be Ratzinger...at least she hoped. I agreed. Then the announcement came. It's not like I was expecting a great reformer or anything like that. Just...well, not this guy.
I agree...while I don't think even the most liberal of Pope's would have managed to change the church much, it's disappointing to see Ratzinger. I predict the Italians will be fairly outspoken in their opposition...
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:51 PM   #125
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How could you go from having a pope who made so many inroads with the Jewish faith to having someone who was a member of Hitler's Youth?
Maybe the world will be ending soon?
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:51 PM   #126
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But wait a minute..If you are Catholic, aren't you supposed to cheerfully accept whoever is chosen as Pope? Afterall, it is supposed to be God's will, right?
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:58 PM   #127
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But wait a minute..If you are Catholic, aren't you supposed to cheerfully accept whoever is chosen as Pope? Afterall, it is supposed to be God's will, right?
A good question for a different thread. When we identify ourselves as "Christian," "Catholic," "Presbyterian," or whatever, are these self-defined titles, or must we accept the authority of a specific institution to use the title?
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:00 PM   #128
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But wait a minute..If you are Catholic, aren't you supposed to cheerfully accept whoever is chosen as Pope? Afterall, it is supposed to be God's will, right?
well, you are bringing up an issue that was discussed a little earlier on this thread. As with most things, there are many varieties of catholicism, and I don't know any catholics who 1) agree and embrace all tenets of the religion, or 2) believe everything about the church should be accepted "cheerfully." Perhaps there are some who think these things shouldn't be questioned, but in my experience, they are a minority.
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:06 PM   #129
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But wait a minute..If you are Catholic, aren't you supposed to cheerfully accept whoever is chosen as Pope? Afterall, it is supposed to be God's will, right?
The line between "God's will" and "man's will" is quite thin.

I tend to wonder if the election of a Pope is any different from the election of a President in that there's probably a lot of backstabbing and politicking behind the scenes. The difference is that the papal conclave is kept very very secret, probably to prevent public exhibition of Vatican politics.

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Old 04-19-2005, 05:24 PM   #130
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Originally posted by melon


The line between "God's will" and "man's will" is quite thin.

I tend to wonder if the election of a Pope is any different from the election of a President in that there's probably a lot of backstabbing and politicking behind the scenes. The difference is that the papal conclave is kept very very secret, probably to prevent public exhibition of Vatican politics.

Melon
Yes, I tend to think it is mostly political backstabbing, except not nearly as bad as it was in the Middle Ages. In those days, Popes were often driven by political and national agendas. I know there is no perfect denonimation of Christianity, but I often wonder why so many people disagree with Catholic doctrines, yet remain Catholic.
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:31 PM   #131
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Yes, I tend to think it is mostly political backstabbing, except not nearly as bad as it was in the Middle Ages. In those days, Popes were often driven by political and national agendas. I know there is no perfect denonimation of Christianity, but I often wonder why so many people disagree with Catholic doctrines, yet remain Catholic.
I think the answer is that religion is not just a belief system--it's tied strongly to culture, ethnicity, and customs. People choose to participate in the Catholic community without always embracing all the ideologies and doctrines. I think people always pick and choose aspects of a religion that appeal to them. There is sizeable gray area in "belonging to a religion" and blindly following a set of beliefs.

Italians flock to church for baptisms, confirmations, and weddings--95% of the country is Catholic. 10% attend mass regularly, or some relatively low percentage that is in that ballpark.
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:36 PM   #132
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I think the answer is that religion is not just a belief system--it's tied strongly to culture, ethnicity, and customs. People choose to participate in the Catholic community without always embracing all the ideologies and doctrines. I think people always pick and choose aspects of a religion that appeal to them. There is sizeable gray area in "belonging to a religion" and blindly following a set of beliefs.

Italians flock to church for baptisms, confirmations, and weddings--95% of the country is Catholic. 10% attend mass regularly, or some relatively low percentage that is in that ballpark.
Yeah, I see your point and it makes sense, but it really disturbs me. It's like diluting religion. I don't know if that's what Ratzinger was talking about, but I saw his quote about the world today becoming increasingly egocentric. Perhaps that is a viable observation too?
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:38 PM   #133
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Originally posted by ruffian


well, you are bringing up an issue that was discussed a little earlier on this thread. As with most things, there are many varieties of catholicism, and I don't know any catholics who 1) agree and embrace all tenets of the religion, or 2) believe everything about the church should be accepted "cheerfully." Perhaps there are some who think these things shouldn't be questioned, but in my experience, they are a minority.


well, it depends. Dan Savage, sex columnist extraordinairre, brings up this very savvy point:



"What's maddening about this pope's signature gay bashing is this: When the pope — the dead one, the next one, the one after that — says something stupid about homosexuality, straight folks take it to heart. The church's efforts have helped defeat gay rights bills, led to the omission of gays and lesbians from hate-crime statutes, and helped to pass anti-gay-marriage amendments. But when a pope says something stupid about heterosexuality, straight Americans go deaf. And this pope had plenty to say about heterosexual sex — no contraceptives, no premarital sex, no blowjobs, no jerkin' off, no divorce, no remarriage, no artificial insemination, no blowjobs, no three-ways, no swinging, no blowjobs, no anal. Did I mention no blowjobs? John Paul II had more "no's" for straight people than he did for gays. But when he tried to meddle in the private lives of straights, the same people who deferred to his delicate sensibilities where my rights were concerned suddenly blew the old asshole off. Gay blowjobs are expendable, it seems; straight ones are sacred."
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:40 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by FullonEdge2
I know there is no perfect denonimation of Christianity, but I often wonder why so many people disagree with Catholic doctrines, yet remain Catholic.
Well, if everyone just left the Church every time they had a small problem with it we'd be stuck with thousands of Christian denominations.

Oh wait.

Seriously though, I (as a Catholic) may not agree with everything that most people in my Church seem to believe (aka the whole gay issue), but I still believe in enough for me to think of Catholicism as the best-suited religion for me. Everyone in the Church doesn't have to have the same opinion on every single subject. It's never happened that way and never will.

Edit: Oh, and Irvine - Savage brings up a good point. Straight people should take a look at their own private lives before condemning the private lives of someone with a different sexuality as they have.
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Old 04-19-2005, 05:48 PM   #135
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Interesting, for what it's worth. I also think it's interesting that he has a "fan club"

BERLIN (AFP) - Pope Benedict XVI, the former German cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, has said he was an unwilling participant in the Hitler Youth movement during World War II.

"As soon as I left the seminary, I did not go straight into the Hitler Youth," Ratzinger said in an interview with German journalist Peter Seewald.

"And that was difficult because in order to qualify for the reduction in schooling fees that I needed, you had to prove you had paid a visit to the Hitler Youth."

When membership of the movement became compulsory in 1941, Ratzinger's older brother Georg joined and the future Pope Benedict XVI was then enrolled, against his will, he has said in a number of interviews.

According to the website of the Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club, in 1943, with World War II at its peak, Ratzinger and the rest of his seminary class were drafted into the German anti-aircraft corps, the Flak, although he was still allowed to attend classes at high school in the southern city of Munich three times a week.

In September 1944, having reached military age, he was released from the Flak and returned home, only to be drafted into a labour detail commanded by men he described as "fanatical ideologues", the website said.

In November 1944, he underwent basic training with the German infantry but due to illness he was allowed to skip the most physical aspects of military training.

As the Allied advance drew nearer, Ratzinger deserted the army and returned to the southern town of Traunstein where he had studied at the seminary.

When the US troops reached the town, they used Ratzinger's house as their headquarters.

He was identified as a German soldier and briefly held in a prisoner of war camp, but was released in June, more than a month after Nazi Germany had surrendered.

Two key US Jewish lobby groups cautiously welcomed the election of Ratzinger as pope and noted that there was no evidence he had committed any crimes while serving in the Hitler Youth.

"As a child, he grew up in an anti-Nazi family. Nonetheless he was forced to join the Hitler Youth movement during the Second World War," the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center's founder and head Rabbi Marvin Hier told AFP.

"There's been no evidence to show that he committed any crimes or has been implicated in crimes, but clearly joining the Hitler Youth is not something you want to boast about on your CV."

Another Jewish activist group in the United States, the Anti-Defamation League, said the new pope had "atoned" for the Nazi links of his youth.

"The fact that he comes from Europe is important because he brings with him an understanding and memory of the painful history of Europe and of the 20th Century experience of European Jewry," the group said, alluding to World War II.

Israel voiced hope that the new head of the Roman Catholic Church would follow the path of his Polish-born predecessor John Paul II in campaigning against anti-Semitism and working for closer ties between Jews and Catholics.

"Given his historical experience, we hope the new pope will be faithful to the commitment of the Catholic Church to fight anti-Semitism," Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said in a statement.
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